Just grandma petting a wild wolf that frequents her yard

scottinsb · 1 day

I'm pretty sure that's a husky.

LeSpy · 2 days

I don't hate anyone, and I certainly appreciate how much you cared for the animals and made sure they were healthy and found them homes.

However, while it's possible that people who breed in the manner that you do convince people to purchase a dog who otherwise would not have a dog, it's pretty inconceivable that you create as many new homes for animals as you took away with the animals you created. You could argue that the people who you gave dogs too would have not had a dog, or would have gone to a puppy mill or whatever, but that's not really how supply works. If the cost (in terms of waiting time and driving distance and money) to get a well-bred dog increases more people will check out the shelter.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that you increased competition for homes, and there are shelter dogs who will lose that competition because of the dogs that loving, caring breeders bring into the world each year.

Certainly, it's a smaller effect than the effect of irresponsible breeders who create a larger volume and then won't take animals back if they are abandoned, but you also compete for homes who would never consider buying from a back yard breeder or a mill.

I think it will be a better world for dogs when people have to wait longer and drive farther to get a puppy and shelter dogs have a better chance at getting a home. (What's more, slightly higher demand at shelters leads to a better cash flow and the ability to help more animals.) I don't know how large the effect of caring, small breeders is vs. 'oops' litters vs. puppy mills, it's an analysis that I'd like to do if I can figure out a good data source and also get off my ass. (Data analysis is my day job.)

I will say that some of the most passionate, loving dog people are breeders like you who don't do it for the money, but while I'm always open to hearing alternative explanations, I don't see any way around the conclusion that even those loving breeders are (on aggregate) causing the shelter death toll to increase.

AsmaClementine · 4 days

Hah, I didn't mean to upset you too! I think OP took it way further than you had meant was all.

My dog definitely responds to my emotional state, but passing strangers on walks would not have been an emotional event before he came around... and I imagine this is the case here too. Learning to stay calm helped me not jerk the leash around and helped later on when he had it in him to remain calm enough to notice me at all... which are all huge steps... but nowhere close to anything that could have caused the problem in the first place, and even if Asma was a zen master that probably would not have prevented the behavior from occurring.

I also think that a lot of dogs learn to read your signals as predictors of what's coming... so a dog who doesn't care about greeting people on walks might never care that you get nervous when someone walks by, but a dog who is scared of strangers is likely to make that connection quickly... so you getting nervous also becomes just another signal from the environment that someone is approaching.

Nomnombunny · 4 days

Oh gosh, Siberians turn up at the shelter all the time.

bethanyR0SE · 5 days

Eep, if he is less than 8 weeks you are going to need to work extra hard on the socialization because he may be more prone to anxiety and other issues. DogStarDaily is a good online guide also kikopup and Puppy Start Right is a great guide, but pricey.

duel007 · 5 days

Don't squirt, scruff or pinch him. You do not want to teach him to fear you. Vets are unfortunately not always behavior experts.

First, note when the behavior occurs constantly? Only at dusk/dawn? When he needs to poop? Pre-empt it if possible with appropriate play, walking, feeding, LOTS of chew toys.

When it occurs it needs to not be reinforced. All your attempting to fight the behavior is becoming a game. Walk away. At four months he needs tons of attention and interactive play, but it needs to stop immediately when he bites.

I would work on incompatible behaviors. Get his sit REALLY strong and then you can ask him for a sit when he is biting. He does not regain your play time until he is calmly sitting (and guess what he can't do when he is sitting!) Reward with treats and then maybe a game of tug.

Also, as many chew toys as you can find. Fill kongs, and get bully sticks or other chewies. You want his jaws to be tired.

Have patience, dogs have a strong need to play bite up until about 4 months which helps them learn the strength of their own jaws. He is only on the tail end of that strong biological need. Here is one biting overview.

Remember that he is just a baby too. It takes patience to raise a well adjusted dog.

AsmaClementine · 5 days

:-( Internet hugs!

You might like following Boogie's blog, it's a dog mom who is doing a really amazing job with her special dog. She is an illustrator and so she has really good tips as well as posts that you'll probably relate to. You may also resent her a little, because her dog is only 35 lbs or something. :-P,

I want to say a good 20-30 feet away. This was too close and her response to seeing them at that distance was the same, barking, snarling, puffing up. It feels like the only point where she is below threshold is when the stimuli is gone from sight and sound...which seems counter productive.

Yeah, 20-30 feet is actually better than where I started with my dog. He just could not breath normally or hear me at all outside. That's why I started using food as a distraction before he noticed people... it's not as good as teaching him that people mean that food is coming, but it's a first step when you can't get far enough away. Medication also helped us get over the first hump. You may also find that the more careful you are, the more her ability to cope increases. Depending on how stressed the dog gets when she triggers it could take something like a day or two for the stress hormones to fully leave her system, so a few days of calm may help. It may also be that service men are too scary to start with... they are carrying large objects and making noise and behaving in weird ways...

We've had several bad experiences where people ignored me completely and continued to march up to her, sticking their hands in her face when she is trying to get away. I have been trying to prevent this but it's frustrating since I'm in no way encouraging people to do it to begin with.

I know! I started being really rude to people at one point "STAY AWAY FROM ME!" (eg, forget the dog... I'M not friendly!)... though perhaps my social skills aren't the best. I've heard trainers suggest saying "she is sick", though that is probably more helpful for keeping away other dogs.

Don't blame yourself though - it seems for some reason that these behaviors often show up as the dog settles in. I wonder how my dog would have progresse if I had been ABSOLUTELYPERFECTINEVERYWAY... but I wasn't. Not even close. Most people are pretty far from perfect with their dogs and most dogs get through it.

I live in a small town and I've already been labeled as the 'girl with the snarling, vicious pit' and nobody else wants to go near her.

That was me for a while... :-( There are going to be people who don't know anything and who judge... but you may also find a surprising number who understand and appreciate what you are trying to do.

I'm afraid if she can't get over this, she's going to be spending a lot of time alone at home, or secluded in the back away from everyone.

Yeah, it sucks. A lot. I know. I did a fair amount of grieving for my dog's social life... if it helps, he didn't.

AsmaClementine · 5 days

The method you are suggesting is called CAT and does have research behind it, but my opinion from the behaviorists that I like the most is that leaving the dog in panic mode is allowing her to rehearse the fear and the behavior and then ultimately results in learned helplessness rather than a relaxed state. The dog learns that he or she can't get away when she is panicked. It also allows the dog to get stressed to a point where the hormonal changes are measurable for quite a while afterwards. It's unclear to me whether the elevated stress and the rehearsed behavior doesn't outweigh the ultimate "reward" since dogs learn during the "seeking phase" it's not just the click-treat or end result that teaches them (though obviously the end result is important). There are certainly legitimate behaviorists who use CAT, but I decided strongly against it for my dog for those reasons. I do really like using distance as a reward for good behavior - but when he triggers I get him to a distance he can cope with. Then good behavior gets him farther away. (This is "BAT" which was named to poke fun at "CAT".)

AsmaClementine · 5 days

It's really, really not your fault. Dogs can notice emotion, but you wouldn't be emotional if your dog wasn't so difficult. I've seen people (yes, plural) show up at training class in tears and those are people who have dogs who can handle training class. It's likely that your dog is stressed to the point where she isn't much noticing what you are doing, and it really sounds like you have been awesome... you aren't hitting her or choking her which is the initial reaction of many people.

A behaviorist is a really good idea... Another thought if you are really in the middle of nowhere is that there are quite a few behaviorists who do phone consults (you'd take video with a camera of some sort.) It's not ideal, but better than nothing.

SiON42X · 6 days

Some thoughts - does she only react this way to you? Only men? (Fear of men is so common, that I'm going to assume that you are male.) Only people your size? Was there a scary event or accident that lead her to fear you? (Could be something you did, or something that happened while you were in the room.) Why she is scared of you doesn't matter as far as the training plan - but if it's really you and only you and there is a good reason (whether or not it's your fault) she fears you then rehoming her might be worth considering... if it's not only you the behavior is likely to be worse when the stress of a new home is added to the mix. It sounds like you are passionate about helping her, so my guess is that the best option is you working with her... but it's your call.

I'm going to point you to the side bar of /r/dogtraining for the links on calming signals. (There are other training and behavior links that may help as well.) First, The links on calming signals are great and will help you get a sense of when she is getting nervous. You should make places in the house where she can get away like a crate or a corner and have your wife hide food there and feed her there. Have your wife reward her for any calming signals in your presence which are not peeing.

You should sit and ignore her while your wife rewards her for being relaxed at a distance. Also the "look at daddy!" where she looks at you and away for a treat. Your job is to teach her that you respect her space and to avoid towering over her, grabbing her or touching her unless she comes to you. You can walk away and toss treats if she likes that. Have your wife care for her for now. You should ignore her and toss treats at her only.

Also, see the fearful dogs website.

Consider asking a vet about anxiety medication (and to check for conditions which exacerbate fear.) A behaviorist is a great idea as well, a trainer could help - but choose carefully. Positive reinforcement only is important.

YourLordandSlavior · 6 days

Honestly, I don't think I've ever met someone who went vegan after figuring it out completely on their own. We do what we are taught until we are challenged in a way that does not make us shut down. It's not a decision you can make for her, and it's unlikely to be a decision she makes over night... but if she is a passionate vegetarian already and if you share your reasons for veganism respectfully and positively and if she is eating vegan with you I think there is a good chance that you two may end up on the same side of the issue...

There is almost no chance of that if you make veganism an unpleasant topic or if you dump her over it though.

SiON42X · 6 days

It's more that hands coming from above can be really threatening to a scared dog. It may be that any contact is scary for her, so I'd avoid petting her unless she initiates. Ignore her and avoid towering over her.

lzsmith · 6 days

Clearly she is trying to make her dog scared of other dogs. She brings him to a place where other dogs will definitely try to play with him and then makes sure it's a bad experience for him. I hate people.

I do understand people who avoid dog parks out of fear that some of the dogs there may not be well socialized or they may have caretakers who are like this woman... so dog parks can be dangerous. (Dogs are dangerous)... but no, this woman does not have a reason or a plan.

AsmaClementine · 6 days

I naively thought that maybe she was trying to warn people to give her space, since cowering and avoiding didn't stop people from noticing her. This was a mistake, I know now.

I think she is.

Her behavior is no longer fearful, it's full out aggressive...

There is absolutely no contradiction there. I know her displays look confident and aggressive, but that's one way dogs channel fear.

Thank you for working with her! If she gets to the point at all where she is barking or growling or lunging she is "over threshold", meaning she can no longer cope. Do not press further, take note of that distance and keep working with her farther away.

The switch from walking away to being aggressive may be because walking away wasn't working for her. (For that reason, always always always make sure she can get away when she is stressed and reward her good behavior by bringing her further away.) The transition might also have come as she became more secure. This is a confusing contradiction, I know, but fear and anxiety is complicated and why a dog chooses to fight or flee is not an easy question. She is scared and views her options as "fight for your life" or "run".

I remember being where you are with my dog. Here is a starter plan.

Manage as much as you can. Plan to have her succeed. That means avoiding situations where she will go over the edge. Getting her to like a muzzle (by luring her into it and rewarding with treats) is a good idea, but never make that your main safety plan. Every time she triggers her emotions are intensifying and she is practicing the concerning behavior. This may mean that she stays in your room with a bone when you have friends over and that she doesn't get to go as many places with you. Also, you can't be too safe. Never let this dog run off leash behind a fence anyone could open, because eventually someone will come by who is stupid enough to do that.
Still part of 1 but never force her towards someone she is scared of. Ever. In fact reward walking away because if she doesn't think she can get away that will make her more scared and also make fighting her only option.
Counter conditioning. At first, you can really just use food to distract her past the scary person, but your goal should be that seeing someone (or something) scary predicts good things (food.) You are aiming to change the emotional association. You are also rewarding anything that isn't lunging.
The "look at that!" game. Teach her to look at the person then back at you for a treat. You can start by clicking her (or saying "yay!" or whatever your marker word is) and giving her a treat whenever she looks at the scary person calmly. The cool part of this game is that you think you are rewarding her with treats, but the really significant reward to her is that when she looks back at you for the treat the scary thing gets less scary so she is learning that good behavior makes the scary thing less scary. You could alternatively teach her the cue on neutral objects. Eventually you may want to wait to reward her for looking at the scary thing then back at you, which teaches her to calm herself. This game is from the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt.
Mark and reward calming signals explicitly. A marker word like "yay!" is needed for this - if you want to mark tongue flicks you may want to use a clicker which will make you faster with the rewards.
My favorite training plan, is BAT by Grisha Stewart. You explicitly start to use distance from the scary thing as a reward for good behavior. The dog quickly learns that she can control her environment and it becomes less scary. There is a book out, or you can look at the functional rewards website for more information.

This is a really good booklist for fearful dogs. Control Unleashed and Click to Calm are good starters, but all the books on the list are really good. (The website has other good resources too.)

I would recommend looking through some of those resources and the "how to find a trainer" and then looking for a trainer or a behaviorist if you can. The right professional will be really helpful. Additionally, you may want to consider a vet behaviorist (if you can afford it!) if you can't talk to your vet about her anxiety. Unfortunately vets are not expected to know anything about animal behavior, but they can prescribe things to help with anxiety and aggression. Additionally your vet can check for various ailments which can either cause or exacerbate behavior issues. (For example: It turned out my dog was hypothyroid and that caused problems.)

Best of luck and I'm sorry this is so rough. I don't think I would want to return to the day I realized the extent of my dog's "PTSD", but I'm glad I stuck it out.

tonijua · 6 days

Kikopup (sidebar) is really awesome, here is an index of most of her free videos - and videos are probably better than books at first. DogStarDaily (also sidebar) is a good resource which tends to not use the clicker, here are some tips from Pat McConnell, I haven't read through them, but she is wonderful. There is also this library of free articles from clickertraining.com (Karen Pryor's organization), which certainly won't have bad/wrong information, though I haven't read it so I can't vouch for how complete or useful it is either.

n00bsysadmin · 7 days

Do not punish elimination. Ever. They are babies, instead leave them in a small room or large crate with a litter box so it's hard to miss. Put them in it and dig up the dirt a little if they don't get it yet. Their instinct should kick in.

Pam Bennet Johnson is a great resource for all of your cat behavior questions. See the basic training tab. Honestly, punishment isn't the most effective way to train, lots of good advice there.

mm0626 · 7 days

Sounds like anxiety. That can be rough to treat. First make sure you are going to a trainer who follows the advice of vet behaviorists or certified applied animal behaviorists, one who works with and refers to behaviorists is even better. Check out the "how to choose a trainer" links in the sidebar.

She also will go nuts any time a noise is made in the house.

You can work on setups where someone feeds her when someone else makes a noise which is not so loud that she can't handle it. The first step is being able to distract her with food. When you are there you should move on to rewarding her for not barking when she hears the noise. This is counter conditioning, the noise becomes a predictor of good things to come. At first it's ok if you show her the food first to keep her from reacting, but eventually you want the sequence to go noise -> "Yay!" -> food.

Especially the front door opening or closing.

Work with her when no one is going in or out. Right now the front door opening predicts strange people. Have it predict nothing, or food, or toys.

Another great idea for noise phobia is to hide treats in cups that she needs to knock over. Reward her for interacting with the cups and for getting the treat out, and work up to noisier piles of things. Then she is making the noise and it has a great outcome. Some people use Nina Otteson toys for this as well... they are plastic but can be noisy if the dog smacks them around.

The fear of other people is a serious problem. Be very careful to have her trigger as rarely as possible at other people and never punish her for it.

Since she seems to have so much in the way of neurosis, I would suggest seeing if there is a behaviorist or vet behaviorist you can go to. You may want to talk to your vet, or the VB or the behaviorist and your vet about medication. It won't work instead of a training plan, but it may get her calm enough to be more receptive.

There are a lot of really good resources on fearfuldogs.com. I really like the book Control Unleashed which wasn't written for fearful dogs, but is really incredibly helpful anyway. Emma Parson's book is helpful too.

notsosilent · 7 days

It's a good idea - I'd add that the goal should be loose leashes (high value rewards to make this happen) if they are straining to get to or away from each other that can be stressful.

notsosilent · 7 days

It's really great that you are taking part in the socialization and training as well as the walking. It's really important to get everyone on the same page.

Molly likes to play with all sizes of dogs, but for the most part has been pretending this new puppy doesn't exist

Excellent. Really. That's an absolutely fine dog behavior.

You can't and should not attempt to force Molly to play with the puppy. Rewarding her for any polite interactions will make the polite behavior occur more reliably and will help her form positive associations with the puppy. Behavior that should be consistently rewarded is:

Ignoring the puppy.
Polite play.
Calming signals (see the sidebar.) Ignoring the puppy might also fall into this category.

Additionally, You can teach the older dog a "look at the puppy!" cue where she looks at the puppy and back at you for a treat. This is a trick from Control Unleashed and it's a really solid way to change the way dogs feel about people/dogs/things in their environment. This may be something to teach the puppy as well, but in that case you are rewarding the puppy for looking without pouncing.

If the older dog shows impolite behavior or growls, that should never be punished. Instead, it's a sign that the puppy should be kept farther away. The older dog should be given plenty of space as well as her own space to get away if that is what she wants - she'll like the puppy much more if she can escape. This doesn't mean that the older dog gets locked up all the time though - that won't make her happy at all.

The puppy needs to be taught polite interactions. The puppy should also be rewarded for calming signals and for any behavior which is not pestering the older dog. Also the puppy should be taught a "walk away" cue to get her off of the older dog more easily. The puppy may need to be exercised and allowed to play with more willing playmates for now.

Also, while rude, missredd does have an important point which is that the skill sets that good trainers have is often under appreciated. Most of the time dog manage to get along no matter how badly we blunder things, but that doesn't mean that there can't be serious consequences to our blunders. I volunteer with a trainer, have attended a few behavior seminars and have read a few books - and while I'll spit up advice on the internet, I would be careful not to represent myself as a professional... there is still a lot of stuff I screw up. I think a final important point is to print out one of the the "How to Choose a trainer" link on the sidebar, and let the family know that while you are really happy to help and that you've done your homework that if the relationship between the dogs isn't blossoming as they hoped they may need to work with a professional. (While you are at it, bring them a calming signals illustration or two to help them understand that the beagle is probably saying lots to the puppy, not ignoring her at all.)

mcpwns · 7 days

Your task should be to set both dogs up to succeed. First look at the calming signals links in the side bar and be aware of the way polite dogs "talk to each other". Head turns, lip licks or yawns from the female may be really polite ways for her to tell your dog "hey, we're cool, but give me some space!" And though your dog doesn't get those yet, you can get there.

The goal for the female should be that the situation isn't too stressful for her, and she can get away from your dog when she wants.

The goal for your dog should be that he is only rewarded for polite interactions and that he isn't allowed to even have rude interactions.

I don't know how rude your dog is or how tolerant the female is, it may be that she enjoys his play for a small amount of time or it may be that she does not want him to jump on her at all. You are going to have to watch her signals. If she does not want play, keep them separated. I'd recommend keeping your dog on leash at a distance where he'll take food and use that to distract some of his energy from her. What you want to do is reward any polite behavior. Like sitting, calming signals, ignoring her or even just "all four on the floor". Eventually, you want to be rewarding him with a baby step towards his friend. That's a little more difficult because it may excite him - so start with food if you need it.

It may be a long weekend. You want to avoid anyone getting stressed or frustrated. I really recommend Grisha Stewart's BAT book and functional rewards protocol. It's basically rewarding your dog for polite signals by allowing him to get closer.

Also, if they are able to play happily - teach them a cue to either separate or come to you and get them apart frequently. That will allow your dog to calm himself before things go wrong. Always end play before things go wrong.

mcpwns · 7 days

Honestly, that's first of all unfair to the other dog who will be very stressed out by the time she is provoked and second of all is likely to have very bad consequences for your dog.

As an illustration, the rescue I work with had a very similar dog to yours who LOVED other dogs but was awkward and had no manners. She was in a home where she was rude to the other dogs who "corrected" her... she now has full blown anxiety-aggression because she had been scratched up and bitten to the point where she still does not know how to be polite and is scared of other dogs. We are currently rehabilitating her with other dogs, but it's an unfortunate outcome you should avoid.

I'll be more constructive in a separate comment.

tonijua · 7 days

won't it be looking for the reward in your hand instead of looking at you?

If you reward that behavior :-)

There is some skill involved in clicker training, it's not complicated but it's a good idea to wear a treat pouch (or put the treats in your pocket) and have your empty hand still and away from the pouch when you click. The dog will learn that staring at your hand or going for the pouch gets no reward, but you'll click (and treat) when he sits and makes eye contact (or whatever your criteria is at the time.)

Clicker training is probably the most effective and powerful method I've seen, it allows you to communicate more clearly with the dog, but you should also have a verbal marker like "Yay!" or "Yes!" so you can reinforce the dog without the clicker when you don't have it. If you decide to nix the clicker completely, that's no big deal either, it's a great tool but you can train without it too.

In any case Puppy Start Right is an excellent puppy primer.

wafflepop · 7 days

articfawx has it. Dogs (and humans too) have a strong survival instinct to protect their items if they don't feel secure with them. Punishment will only make the dog thing he needs to fight. The only thing I'd add is that Jean Donaldson has a book Mine! on the subject if you want the full story from a professional.

I'd also be extra careful to avoid situations where the dog has things for a while. Also, help the dog develop a sense of security by letting him be when he's got something good, unless you are working on the trade-up exercises (with low value items at first like artic mentions). At first, I'd not even trade, I'd just walk near and toss treats at him. Watch for calming signals (sidebar) and for his paws tightening around his items. You want to be at the point where he'll casually walk away from his item to pick up the treat you tossed before you pick up the item and hand it back. No racing him for his things :-)

Devi_D · 13 days

Honestly, completely unsupervised back yard time is not a good idea, especially for a dog who is working on better doggy communication. I saw a seminar by Grisha Stewart who put up a picture of some dogs sitting at a window and said "I hope their people want them to bark because that's what they are getting trained to do all day." If her coping method is growling that's what she'll practice in the yard, when whatever it is eventually goes away it will be strongly reinforced, and worse proper dog communication has zero change of working for her... and that's even if boxer guy doesn't come.

Leaving her out there alone is going to completely undo all of your hard work.

The link above (Grisha's name) is a website devoted to getting dogs to make better communication choices, and to reward them and teach them to reward themselves with polite behavior and removing themselves from situations which they don't like. It's an excellent extension to counter conditioning and rewarding calming signals which sounds like what you are doing.

Once you get to the point where she can make good decisions like give a calming signal and then walk away even when she is being barked at through the fence you can re-evalute, but until then you really need to keep her inside or supervised. Episodes like this will very easily undo everything you are working on. Even if you successfully deal with this one guy, there will be another. And another, and another. It's an unfortunate reality that many people see dogs in distress and find it funny.

nockt · 13 days

Cool! I've heard of someone who uses a spray bottle as a reward for his boxer in the summer... and so I've actually had counter conditioning the spray bottle on the to do list for my dog before the hot weather hits... he came to me with neurosis though and his safe distance from the spray bottle is still across the room.

Aversives are in the eye of the beholder though. One dog loving the spray bottle doesn't mean it won't cause other dogs distress.

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