The love of God does not cancel the wrath of God.

WalkerMobile · 1 day

There's a HUGE difference between the theologies of Luther and Calvin.

Christus Victor over Penal Substitution, for one - which drastically changes things.

Also...there is more mystery surrounding predestination/ double predestination in Luther's thought...

Jiffy_Squid · 4 days

To be fair, I think Jon is far beyond Arminianism. Arminians believe in synergism, in which both God (through the Holy Spirit) and the person co-labor with God doing all the heavy lifting (read Roger Olson for a great overview of Arminian theology on its own terms). Jon seems to be saying God stands back and watches you fail until one day you don't fail quite as badly.

Jiffy_Squid · 4 days

Ok...just wanted to understand where you were coming from

Jiffy_Squid · 4 days

So the only change in us comes from human effort?

Jiffy_Squid · 4 days

Yeah, in Luke 8 also...those who bear fruit are those who hear the message with a good and noble heart.

Also Nathaniel had no deceit in his heart...

Jiffy_Squid · 4 days

No, I'm not talking about unregenerate humanity. I'm asking if this verse applies to regenerated Christians.

backpackwayne · 8 days

Who, God?

backpackwayne · 8 days

I should have put a winky face there. It wasn't meant as angry or snide. I guess a little frustrated that we're all Christians worshipping different Gods. Not only that but seeing each other as "dishonest." Did I call you dishonest? I don't remember doing that.You did.

Is it snide and angry to say I've heard it all before? I have, sorry. I've been there. 7 years ago I would have been saying everything you just said.

There's just no way for Calvinists and non-Calvinists to be brothers and sisters are there?

It's true, I do not find your God beautiful in the slightest. So, by your system I am not chosen and likely hated by him. I didn't mean that as snide and angry, but more like sad and frustrated. Oh well.

backpackwayne · 8 days

Thanks for your time. I don't think we're getting very far. I've heard it all before. I guess I am just not chosen by your God to have it make sense for me.

backpackwayne · 9 days

Good for you! Maybe someday you'll follow it to its conclusion.

backpackwayne · 9 days

Yeah same here. Calvinists usually drain the life out of everything.

That's fine with me actually, none of my points have been rebuffed at all. I'm happy to leave it as is.

backpackwayne · 9 days

Who are you to presume to be God - o man?

backpackwayne · 9 days

Well, first we must determine what the heart is. The heart isn't simply an emotion generator. It's your mind, your thoughts, your inclinations, and yes... sometimes your emotions (which are temporary, chemical reactions). Yes I have scriptural support for this: As (a man) thinks in his heart, so is he (Proverbs 23:7). Nor does his heart think so (Isaiah 10:6). Why do you think evil in your thoughts (Matthew 9:4). If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart (James 1:26).

True but there are MANY more heart passages. Jesus said in the parable of the sower in Luke that only those with "good and noble hearts" would be able to bear fruit.

So, does a believer still sin? If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). 1 John is talking to whom? To believers! Yes, believers still sin. We do have a new, transformed heart, but the regeneration process isn't complete at justification. It's complete at salvation... At death or rapture.

I thought we were to reckon ourselves as dead to sin?

Come on, you must know we can go around and around on this. We are called to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. We are never told to identify our identities with the old nature.

Wat? No. In fact, if anything you're arguing for relativism! You're a man who is in love with another man? Must not be a sin. You're in love with 2 women who are both fine with an open sexual, unmarried relationship with you? Must not be a sin. You think a Christian can't be tempted with these, to be deceived by their heart/mind/thoughts/emotions?!

Are all things lawful?

You have read Paul, right?

I cannot speak for you. I believe that I was previously wrong in my arminianist doctrine because I was being dishonest. I do believe the arminianist is wrong. So, it's important to ask why do I believe it's wrong? Well, if I'm being honest, the answer actually is that I believe it's a dishonest interpretation that reduces both the sovereignty and holiness of God. I'm not suggesting you must agree with my view. You're free (hehe) to believe what you want.

Well, I don't think you are dishonest, you obviously can't help but have a lower opinion of people that disagree with you based on your system.

Even if it were simply rhetorical, the answer was that YES, God CAN create vessels of wrath to show his glory to His vessels of mercy and He would "certainly not" be unjust in doing so, and that we have no right to question his right to do so!

Yes, God is just in doing anything He wants, but there is one thing He can't force: our love. And I will not love a God who is that cold and calculating. Thankfully I don't find that God in the pages of the gospels.

backpackwayne · 9 days

Where else is there to go? What other kind of God is there who would do such things?

According to Calvinism, God hates me. Oh well, can't do anything about it, can I?

backpackwayne · 9 days

I said no such thing, don't put word in my mouth. I said God wills the best for His creation and that He ultimately wills reconciliation. Yet He doesn't want to make us all sock puppets, he wants real humans. So if you define God willing something as forcing it to happen, you could get universalism. I don't subscribe to that view of God's will. It's telling that you take it for granted.

Does God will that any should perish? Do any perish? Well then, there goes YOUR definition of God willing something.

Give me an example of the kind of definition you want. God's love isn't a feeling, it is a decision to will what is best for His creation.

Why don't you tell me the definition of agape before Christians started using it. (Good luck) Otherwise YOU provide a definition and we'll work with yours.

backpackwayne · 9 days

But there's a 50/50 chance God won't show grace to me. He may choose to hate me. I can't do anything about that.

backpackwayne · 9 days

God is free to, but doesn't mean He does.

Jesus was free to grasp equality with God for its own sake but chose not to.

Your text is about God's radical INCLUSION of outside groups...which is the point that is being made to Jews in Romans. To use it as an exclusionary text is inaccurate.

Just because God is free to do something doesn't mean it is the honorable or loving thing to do.

And your definition of being "loved" by God is basically being lucky. Is luck worth putting your faith in?

backpackwayne · 9 days

The kind that recognizes what if questions. Does Paul explicity say...YES God creates some to be vessels of wrath, or does he say "What if he does? What is that to you?"

Same thing happens in John 21. Makes a difference to read it as it is written.

backpackwayne · 9 days

Uh...could be the "what if" that begins the sentence on vessels of wrath.

in Greek: de ei

backpackwayne · 9 days

Why did he call them that? What type of behavior was he upset with. Go through Matt. 23 and be specific.

backpackwayne · 9 days

Fine, you don't like my definition? You define it and we'll work with yours. All of this dishonest "objectivism" is getting tedious.

And stop name calling. I am not a universalist and have said nothing about the existence of Hell.

Dead2Alive · 9 days

it's like your plane crashing when you're afraid to fly

Dead2Alive · 9 days

http://zipmeme.com/meme/85420/

backpackwayne · 9 days

You're killing me, Basilides!

Jiffy_Squid

TROPHY CASE

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