POLL: Where are you from? I'll create a colorful map of the results.

Mr_Philosopher · 2 months

Salt Lake City, UT. Represent Mormon Land.

ikurumba · 2 months

Borrowed from where, exactly? The Bible, written by your supposedly perfect god? The one who allowed, even commanded, the rape of innocent women? The one who wiped out nearly every living thing on an entire planet? The one who hardened Pharaoh's heart, then punished him by killing his firstborn son (and the rest of the firstborn in Egypt)?

That's your morality? That's the best you've fucking got? Sorry sir, I'll stick to my rationalizations. There's no reason in your holy book.

throwaway29489 · 3 months

Frankly, we don't know. The Big Bang explains the early development of the universe, but doesn't really answer the "first cause" question. It's something we're still learning about, even today.
This is kind of an ambiguous question. What do you mean by "everything" and what do you mean by "works perfectly?" When you say by "chance" are you referring to evolution (definitely not chance), or just the inception of the universe?
Christianity wasn't made up all at once. It evolved over time, and integrated a lot of different belief sets (many of them pagan) all at once. As a former Christian, I agree that it can be very inconvenient. But the people in positions of power could always use it as a means of control. People who are more focused on the after-life than reality are prone to ignorance of all forms.
Morality comes from society. It is an ever-changing zeitgeist. You don't need to look back very far in time to see that human morality has drastically changed. 10 years ago homosexual discrimination was rampant. 20 years ago racial discrimination was rampant. 100 years ago slavery was rampant. 1,000 years ago murder was rampant. As society becomes increasingly educated and rationally-minded, morality evolves with it.
Like I said, I am an ex-Christian, and I have had very similar feelings. I lost the belief a little bit at a time. The more I investigated, and the more I looked at the world with an open mind, the less I saw god in it.
The FAQ can answer this question.

ESAsher · 3 months

If every Christian was like you I wouldn't have much of a problem with Christianity.

socialcritiquer · 3 months

Should you go? Of course, provided you have enough time to adequately prepare.
Argument? You're well read in Dawkins. Need I say more?
Behavior? Courteous, but witty. Polite, but incisive. Simple and straightforward.

Rainfly_X · 3 months

What makes you think that he's real as opposed to the universe simply being a harsh and indifferent place?

u8eR · 3 months

Speak like a human being, not a pretentious philosophy undergrad, and maybe someone will give a shit.

pepsi_logic · 3 months

Another point this brings up, you just said that these people were used as "puppets" and "couldn't even read." Based on that information (and assuming that is really true), do you still believe that they deserve an eternity of torture in hell? Merely for being misled by their superiors?

If so, why do you think that is an acceptable punishment? They were basically tricked into their course of action by someone claiming greater religious authority.

Don't you think god is unfair for punishing them for eternity for a crime of passion that they committed while under the influence of someone else?

pepsi_logic · 3 months

Well, there are verses that can be interpreted as "aggressive" or instigating violence towards unbelievers. Maybe you would never interpret them this way, but some might. Likewise, think about the verses you referred to earlier that supposedly "mirrored" modern science. You might interpret these vague verses to demonstrate some aspect of modern science. But I would read these same verses and think no such thing about them.

So we have an issue about relativity within the text. There is no absolute understanding and that's why there are bitter disagreements even among those within Islam. The same issues occur within Christianity and all other major religions. Who are you to say you have the ultimate understanding of the text? What if Allah is real and he loves Jihadists? What if that really was his intention, that you kill the infidels?

pepsi_logic · 3 months

No, you still haven't gotten my point.

Your god has already decided who wins the game. Then he gives those people the right number of hints, to ensure that they win the game and fulfill his decision. For the people who god knows have already lost, he gives them not enough hints, or creates their minds in a different way, to fulfill his decision.

So humanity is still pointless. The game is a farce. As is your religion.

pepsi_logic · 3 months

Of course the numbers are not comparable, I am not arguing about the rightness of their actions, only that their motives were Islamic in nature.

The punishment you described is unjust. They were just interpreting the holy book that your prophet gave them. Sure, they may have interpreted it wrong, but god predetermined that they would, and then created them anyway. So he created them so that they could suffer in hell for eternity. And why, might I ask, did he write the book such that it could even be misinterpreted? Why not make it abundantly clear that these kind of acts should not be tolerated?

pepsi_logic · 3 months

So our point is to be his toys.

Congratulations, you've just proven the childishness of your god.

You've undone yourself right here though, with this line: "gave us free will and enough info for who He thinks deserves heaven to achieve it." That means there is still no point to humanity. He has predetermined the ones who "deserve" heaven and then he gives them just enough "information" to achieve it? Why not decide that all of humanity "deserves" heaven and give them all just enough "information," e.g., absolute proof?

pepsi_logic · 3 months

OK, and if I was truly wrong about there not being a test in the first place, and I have a chance to speak to your god and he informs me that I was wrong, I would tell him:

"Well, I'm sorry for not realizing there was a test. But when I looked at the world with the eyes you created for me, and when I thought about what I saw with the mind you made for me, I was simply not convinced of your existence. To me, it seemed that it was all rather meaningless."

And this would be a perfectly rational response to your god. But then he would send me to hell anyway. And I would be tortured forever. And ever. And ever.

And that seems OK to you? You're perfectly fine with that? Me, not so much. I agree more with Marcus Aurelius when it comes to the existence of a god, who said:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

pepsi_logic · 3 months

These seem to me to be very shallow qualities on which to judge a religion.

I am not concerned with consistency of your holy book, if it declares the existence of a cruel and unfair god that is essentially the same character as the Christian or Jewish "Yahweh."

I am not impressed by the integration of your religion into "real life," when this same integration is used to condemn and shun anyone with an opposing opinion (see women's rights, homosexuality, etc., etc.)

And I am worried that you believe there is no religious authority in Islam, and yet we have Muslims flying planes into American buildings on the basis of a religious authority.

I cannot pick a religion that is "better" than Islam because all religions are essentially the same in my mind. They all eventually boil down to the same appeals to emotion, and the same circumvention of reason. They all claim authority from a higher power, and abuse this authority whenever possible. They are all derived from mythology or lore that science has long since debunked. They all encourage primitive thinking and primitive behaviors, that basic understanding of human rights would not tolerate. To me, every religion is poison. So asking me to pick a "better" poison is a bit difficult.

pepsi_logic · 3 months

According to you, the Quran is (or can be for some people), an objective proof that Islam is the one true religion. You've probably used the Quran before in religious arguments, and attempted to demonstrate that it is superior to other holy books in terms of mathematical/philosophical criticism.

My question: if god is willing to write this holy book, that describes his entire plan for humanity, and makes clear all of his intentions and motivations, it appears he has already taken one very large step in the direction of providing "objective proof" of the truth of Islam. Why not take it a step further and ensure that all of humanity can be saved? Why not provide absolute proof? Why let anyone be tortured for exercising the mental faculties with which he created them?

pepsi_logic · 3 months

Well, the difference between you making stuff up out of your ass, and some "prophet" making stuff up out of his ass thousands of years ago, is pretty slim. ;)

The explanation here is still inadequate. How useful is free will or the ability to reason, if all it leads to is rejection of god and eternal suffering? So we can decide between right and wrong, but if we don't choose the exact thing your god said, he will send us to hell? That's a very shallow approach to morality, and a very tight constraint on human reason.

What about people like me, who have heard about these "rules," but still find them unconvincing? According to your god, my only purpose is for eternal suffering. To me, that doesn't seem very fair. Your god supposedly created my mind. And your god knew that mind would reject him. Why create something to make it suffer? There is no rationality behind that belief.

pepsi_logic · 3 months

Rapid growth should not convince you of anything. Christianity enjoyed a period of explosive growth when Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman Empire in 313 CE (reference). This had nothing to do with Christianity being the one true religion so much as it had to do with it being popular and culturally dominant. Islam enjoys a very similar benefit in many Middle Eastern nations, especially since it is integrated into the government and the laws.

As for your "signs," I would love to see the verses that you are referring to, as well as their unadulterated versions (before any translations). It's apparent that you already have a rational response to this claim.

If there is a lack of truly "objective" evidence (I will assert that there is), then you can fall back on Hitchen's Razor. You must understand that every religion has "some convincing things." Even Scientology, with its magical thetans, e-meters, and spaceships that resemble jet planes, has tapped into some core emotional truth that resonates with a surprising number of people. Since every religion has some convincing aspect, you must rely on more than that. If you truly want your belief to be rock-solid, you should be searching for rock-solid evidence. I did this myself, with Christianity, and in 6 months I was deconverted.

stilllifewatercolour · 3 months

You have missed the point. Imagine that god has already judged this hypothetical woman and found her unfaithful. She has rejected him, and god has judged her. She will burn in hell forever.

How can you consider that justice?

stilllifewatercolour · 3 months

Just because Christian philosophers have "responded" to the objections does not mean that the objections have been invalidated.

stilllifewatercolour · 3 months

False. No one deserves eternal punishment. If you think anyone, even Hitler or Stalin, deserve eternal punishment (the definition of hell), then you have a morally depraved view of justice.

According to your definition of justice, a kind, compassionate, woman that works for Doctors Without Borders and puts her own life at risk to bring healthcare to lesser-developed countries, but rejects the existence of god on the basis of a lack of evidence, would be subjected to eternal hell-fire. Yes, in your mind, that woman would have her flesh seared off for billions, trillions of years, all because on a tiny mote of dust in a vast and indifferent universe, she found no good reason to believe in your Zombie Jew That Will Save You If You Telepathically Accept Him As Your Savior.

JUSTICE?! I think not, my good sir.

pepsi_logic · 3 months

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but free will and your definition of god cannot logically coexist. There cannot be a god who knows your every action and who set a plan in motion for every human being, and still have free will. It's a logical paradox, and you will never be able to come up with a "flaw-proof" explanation. I mean, sure, you can rationalize it however you'd like in your head (you certainly seem comfortable with this approach, though it doesn't suit me), but far better philosophers than you have failed, for centuries, to make this copacetic.

I do like your analogy of the ants, though, because it brings up a great parallel:

What kind of human being would observe the minutiae of ant lives, and judge them according to his human standards of ant behavior? Furthermore, what kind of human would then take it upon himself to punish the ants who he felt were being "bad" and reward the ants he felt were being "good?"

This human being, if he were to exist, could be described euphemistically as "obsessive-compulsive" and, more realistically, as a complete lunatic with severe behavioral problems and a masochistic penchant for control.

And yet, this behavior is only a small fraction of what you actually believe god is doing, on a daily basis, for all of humanity. Isn't that sad?

stilllifewatercolour · 3 months

Well, for starters, some telepathic communication from god would probably be sufficient. But that's still fairly subjective, so how about a sign that could not be interpreted any other way? Like, all of the stars in the sky realigning to spell the words, "JESUS IS THE ONE TRUE GOD." That would definitely get me thinking.

As for you accusing god of being unjust, it seems like you are on very shaky moral ground there. For example, you probably agree with me that murder is wrong. Or, that torture is wrong. But your god has murdered more than any human being that has ever existed. And plans to torture most of humanity for all of eternity. So I don't think you are being honest with yourself when you say he is the basis for justice.

CharlieHoss

TROPHY CASE

CharlieHoss

TROPHY CASE

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