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Being harassed at my workplace by coworkers because of my religion. (self.nyc)

submitted ago* by [deleted]

thanks everyone, even the lame troll attempts.

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[–][deleted] 39 points40 points ago

To all those suggesting it's illegal to record someone in the State of NY; it's legal.

New York State is a "one party State" regarding the recording of audio of another.

[–]Volgyi2000 17 points18 points ago

Not to be a dick here, but please provide source? We don't want OP getting fired based on the word of an anonymous internet user.

[–]turnyouracslaterup 22 points23 points ago

Not a lawyer. But:

NYS 250

.2. "Mechanical overhearing of a conversation" means the intentional overhearing or recording of a conversation or discussion, without the consent of at least one party thereto, by a person not present thereat, by means of any instrument, device or equipment.

People v. Lasher 1983

We now reverse. It is not unlawful to eavesdrop on telephone conversations with the consent of one of the parties to the conversation [...], nor is the tape recording evidence in this case to be excluded because the consenting party, who was a government employee, may have acted contrary to the rules of her employer [...]

Unlawful surveillance does not apply, as there was no right to privacy expected and no one was getting undressed. Unless…

That said: Judges in New York state have a right to throw out recordings even if they had one-party consent at the time of the recording. I doubt it would need to go to court over it.

Your Human Resource department should investigate the claim regardless if you have a recording or not. If there was more than one person there, there'd have to be a lot of people denying your claim. The recording would be nice insurance in that scenario.

Also: Talk to a lawyer now. You may not need to do anything like this to have a claim—and if you try to provoke someone into doing it again just for a recording, it could hurt your chances of getting a fair shake.

[–]MJGSimple 8 points9 points ago

First and foremost, OP needs to talk to HR. If this is addressed by the company in some sort of training or manual, the OP is not going to get shit from a lawsuit.

[–]turnyouracslaterup 1 point2 points ago

Oh yeah, for sure. I meant more for advice, not to start a lawsuit. Most places of business will handle internally. And then when they don't then you sue.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]MJGSimple 0 points1 point ago

If the supervisor's harassment results in a hostile work environment, the employer can avoid liability only if it can prove that: 1) it reasonably tried to prevent and promptly correct the harassing behavior; and 2) the employee unreasonably failed to take advantage of any preventive or corrective opportunities provided by the employer.

Source U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]MJGSimple 1 point2 points ago

The two parts are: The employer tried to prevent & correct the behavior, the harassed employee failed to use the company methods to resolve the issue.

All we know is that some other employees harassed, we have no idea if there was a company effort to prevent. We do, however, know that so far the harassed employee has not taken advantage of corrective opportunities provided...

[–]anonymous1 1 point2 points ago*

There is no evidence from the OP that the harasser is a supervisor and that is legally relevant. For example, if the harasser isn't a supervisor then likely there won't be "tangible employment action." Facts are important and it appears we don't have them. IANAL.

The employer will be liable for harassment by non-supervisory employees or non-employees over whom it has control (e.g., independent contractors or customers on the premises), if it knew, or should have known about the harassment and failed to take prompt and appropriate corrective action.

Anyhow, there are tons of cases out there on this stuff and lots of lawyers who practice in the area, but I am not a lawyer at all.

But, most of the language on that page is basically cribbed from Supreme Court precedent. For example the 1 & 2 you posted is in Burlington Industries v. Ellerth at 765.

[–]filenotfounderror 17 points18 points ago

Chistmas is a federal holiday isnt it?

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points ago

That's what I said, and they said since hotels and other places are open I should work too.

[–]Yougotredditonyou 18 points19 points ago

Maybe they're just teasing you - not that they should be, particularly in the workplace. You should be able to not feel harassed at work. Maybe try being blunt. "I don't appreciate your comments regarding my personal life, and I find it extremely inappropriate in this setting." Otherwise, maybe open up a hypothetical conversation with a superior in the office and ask their opinion on the matter. Good luck to you, I'm sorry you've had to deal with this.

[–]rcinsf 4 points5 points ago

Yeah, just tell them to get off their fucking crosses.

[–]esquilax 0 points1 point ago

Or on.

[–]devils0508 9 points10 points ago

How do you know it was harassment and not just gentle teasing/kidding around? I'm in a very diverse office and we're all good friends, and we'll crack jokes. Telling you to come in on Christmas seems more like a joke than anything malicious...

[–]turnyouracslaterup 17 points18 points ago

One man's joke is another man's hostile work environment.

[–]devils0508 1 point2 points ago

That's true, that's why I think we need more context. You spend half your life at work, it would suck if you couldn't crack simple jokes during that time. I want to know why was exactly malicious about the comments. I get the feeling he just hates his job and is trying to find an excuse to sue.

[–]room23 1 point2 points ago

"we need more context."

You don't need anything. It's the OP's prerogative on what they want to report and how using what evidence they choose to use. You are not the arbiter of what's considered discrimination.

[–]devils0508 0 points1 point ago

He asked "What would you do?" in his original post, context is EXTREMELY important - in fact, its everything.

[–]room23 0 points1 point ago

Even though he provided quotes and clear explanations of what was said? Do you want so much detail that he identifies himself?

Let's fill in the blanks - you are called a "fake jew" at work, firstly. And since it's Christmas, and they're Christians, they say, "why don't you work on Christmas for us, you're a jew aren't you? You should come in since you're not celebrating Christmas. Or are you a fake jew, because you don't practice anything? Then maybe you should come in."

Wow, that sounds terribly vague, I can't imagine what the OP means by that and what that might constitute. Not enough detail there to draw my opinion, let's hound the OP for more details until we can find something to call them out on.

Secondly: OP said "what would you do," as in, what do you make of my experience and what would you have done in my place? He's not asking for legal counsel on what steps he should have taken - he was asking about that for the recording.

[–]musicsexual 5 points6 points ago

It can still be hurtful or feel demeaning. If someone slapped me on the ass, they could say all they want that it was playful. Of course it was playful - but it is still considered sexual harassment.

[–]devils0508 0 points1 point ago

ya but he didn't get slapped on the ass.

[–]musicsexual 5 points6 points ago

My point is, saying it is playful doesn't make it not harassment.

[–]devils0508 -1 points0 points ago

It does mean he should take a chill pill and not sue. I don't want to live in a world in which EVERYTHING is harassment. Obviously you shouldn't be slapping asses and making holocaust jokes, but playing around in the office is the only thing that keeps most people sane. I fail to see how a joke about one holiday is even close to long enough or intense enough to justify harassment.

[–]cC2Panda 1 point2 points ago

There is also a huge difference between physical harassing and verbal. Most of the places I have worked, we work in small teams that are very tight knit and so we joke around with each other, and play pranks. Some people really do need to pull the stick out of there ass. If I start joking with you it is because it is a way of bonding, and if you don't like it tell me and I'll stop, but don't be an asshole that resorts to talking to superiors before talking to the person you think is harassing you maliciously.

[–]OneSalientOversight 10 points11 points ago*

If this was a single incident then you should probably let it go. Recording it was good though. One incident is not enough to take action on.

If the incident happens again (and hopefully you have recorded it) then approach the individuals involved and try to resolve the situation. Mention to them that what they are engaged in is harassment and that any further incidents will be reported to HR. DO NOT TELL THEM YOU HAVE RECORDED THEM. If you fear their response, then take a person you can trust with you as an advocate. Ensure that you tell them that you are willing to let the whole thing go if they stop doing it.

If the incident occurs again, despite the previous warning, then go to HR and complain, presenting the HR person with the audio evidence. Ensure that you keep a copy of the evidence as well. Tell HR that you believe that they should take appropriate action.

If the incident occurs yet again then go to HR as quickly as possible and demand action.

If the incident occurs again, then approach a lawyer and any government body outside your workplace who can help (I assume NYS has some sort of workplace Ombudsmen to look after this sort of thing). The ACLU is probably a good group to consult. Also tell HR that you have been forced to go outside of the company for help.

If that doesn't work then contact the media.

Please ensure that you follow this procedure. Do not approach HR or the ACLU or the media after a single incident. You have to show that you have been working on conciliation throughout and that all possibilities have been exhausted before moving up to the next level. Any smear campaign against you by the company and their lawyers will initially focus upon your inability to solve the problem early on and attempt to paint you as a legal troublemaker making a mountain out of a molehill.

It may be a good idea to send a letter to each person involved (and to HR and to the govt and the ACLU etc) and keep copies of such letters to prove that you have followed conciliation procedure. Ensure that your audio recordings are not erased and kept in case they are needed in a civil trial.

Disclosure: I am an evangelical Christian. These people sound like right-wing conservatives who are also evangelical Christians.

[–]MJGSimple 2 points3 points ago

Do not approach HR or the ACLU or the media after a single incident. You have to show that you have been working on conciliation throughout and that all possibilities have been exhausted before moving up to the next level.

Umm, going to HR is exactly what you do in this situation. You don't have to file a complain or anything, but they will start a file. And if this behavior continues, then he has HR to back him up.

Who said anything about the ACLU or the media. That's just ridiculous. This is definitely something that needs to be shared with HR just to be on the safe side. They'll just advise you on how to address the situation with your coworkers.

[–]cryonine 2 points3 points ago

I hate to tell you this, but HR is there to protect the company, not the employee. You should only approach HR after a second incident. I say this as a former manager that witnessed HR escalations.

[–]MJGSimple 1 point2 points ago

I'll agree that for shitty companies this may be true. Also, the natural progression is for people to deal with these issues like normal adults first. However, if anyone thinks they're going to get a lawsuit right off the bat, which is what OP insinuated, they're wrong. This shouldn't be an argument, I think we both agree. OP clearly asked if he should get a lawyer first though.

[–]cryonine 0 points1 point ago

Oh, I'm not arguing, sorry if it came off that way. I've just found that people all too often think HR is there to defend the employee. Unfortunately running to them first is usually a bad first course. :(

[–]MJGSimple 0 points1 point ago

Well, it depends on the situation. If there is a company wide hostile environment then no help would be provided and it would be a detriment to go to HR. However, in the isolated incident that OP didn't know how to handle, I think HR would be helpful.

[–]cryonine 0 points1 point ago

If it's a repeat incident, absolutely. If it's the first one, probably not.

[–]OneSalientOversight 1 point2 points ago

The idea has to be that the problem between the employees be solved amongst them first rather than taking the step to involve externals.

If the problem can't be solved between the employees, then the next thing to do is to take it up a notch and inform HR.

All good conflict management begins with the basic view that the conflict should be first settled between the antagonists. It's only when that fails that complaints should be taken to the next level.

As for the ACLU and the media. If you had read my response properly you'd realise that they were the options available only after HR failed.

[–]MJGSimple 1 point2 points ago

You're right. And I agree with you.

[–]ralphwiggum 3 points4 points ago

First, it's not illegal to record conversations (as others have mentioned), but it could be against your company policy, which would make you in violation of THAT, and potentially open to a warning. As shitty as that is, it is truth. I am running a project to rewrite my company handbook and this is a policy that we've been asked to include. (I work in NYC limits.)

Second, this isn't a lawsuit. It isn't even a written warning - it's probably a verbal. For most companies, the procedure is, you directly speak to the person (ideally, privately - don't make it a forum). If you fear retaliation, you go to HR, but that usually doesn't work as well as just speaking to the bully directly. Speaking to them helps you figure out if there was malicious intent or if it was intended to be comedic and can help you build your case later.

Finally, keep track of everything. What you said, what they said, dates and times of interactions and who was there. Even if it was no one. You should have a list that looks like this:

12/24 - Joe said, "December 25th is to honor Jesus Christ, not Mohamma-sandwich, bitch. You should have to work, because that's what your shitty god wants you to do."

12/26, 10:37pm, in the break room - I said to Joe, "When you said, "<Above>" it made me feel attacked. It was inappropriate for the workplace and I'd appreciate it if you could keep our interactions more professional. This doesn't mean I don't want to joke around, but my religion isn't a topic for discussion."

12/26 10:38 - Joe said, "go fuck your weird, 8 armed freak god."

Then you have a pattern, you have tried to fix it, and you have a list of interactions that are not appropriate for a workplace that exists in the United States.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

Thanks I really appreciate it. I had a feeling I was overreacting to get revenge so to speak.

[–]grinkBay Ridge 4 points5 points ago

Tell human resources and document everything. Federal law protects your right to not be discriminated against on basis of religion.

[–]Nope- 2 points3 points ago

One incident is unfortunately not enough for human resources to take action, it has to be severe and/or pervasive. I don't think this would be considered severe as it doesn't directly affect your employment in any meaningful way (now, if you were actually made to work Christmas, you might have a case), so that only leaves pervasive, which basically means it has to occur more than once. If it continues, you definitely have a case, but if it's a one off you're out of luck.

[–]PatFlynnEire 5 points6 points ago

I am a lawyer and have managed a company with 1,200 diverse employees. This is not legal advice, but a perspective from someone who has been there. If the tone of the discussion was of a kidding, albeit ignorant, nature, and you think you can deal with it unofficially, then you might approach your co-workers and tell them you were offended and don't want to hear such words again. If you felt it was more hostile and malicious, then you should go to HR now and tell them about it. I would hold the tape recording in my back pocket, till the offending parties emphatically denied it, and then offer the tape as evidence, destroying their credibility. At this point, the company has to issue a severe warning to them, and terminate them if anything else occurs. If another incident happens and the company does nothing about it, then it begins to expose itself to liability.

I concur that taping public conversations, where there is no expectation of privacy, in NYS is legal, with one party consent.

[–]porklomeinnoveg 7 points8 points ago

dont sue. tell them to fuck off. dont be a piece of shit and take the lawsuit road. turn it around on them

[–]shkizoink 3 points4 points ago

You need to work a little google-fu and make sure it's not illegal to record somebody in NY without their consent. Won't do you much good to go to HR with a recording that is proof of your coworker being an intolerant dick but is also proof of you breaking the law.

[–]Local_Essay 9 points10 points ago

Why won't you mention the religion you associate yourself with?

[–]valhrona 17 points18 points ago

Because it isn't relevant to how he should handle the issue.

[–]Local_Essay 19 points20 points ago

It's relevant because it would add to the story. NYC has a very unique for the us religious demographic and I want more backstory.

[–]InterPunct 1 point2 points ago

I'm thinking it's Mormon. A "fake Jew" or "fake Hindu", etc. (with reference to Christmas) wouldn't exactly work.

[–]a1icey 6 points7 points ago

actually the opposite. it's always fake jew. this is an area of tension (christmas holidays) between christians and jews in some industries in nyc. he's probably a lapsed orthodox jew who celebrates the holy days in september and in the spring with his family but doesn't actually believe in it.

[–]AMerrickanGirl 0 points1 point ago

There are plenty of Jews who don't celebrate any religious holidays, and they're not Orthodox either.

[–]a1icey 0 points1 point ago

err, which is why i am assuming OP is? the orthodox holidays are long (one week or so) and disruptive (at a time of year when it's full steam ahead) which is why it builds so much animosity.

[–]MikeasaurusRex 0 points1 point ago

fake american maybe?

[–]Craquehead 2 points3 points ago

If he doesn't do christmas, and it's not a "major" religion, it's probably Jehovas Witness.

[–]giunta13 5 points6 points ago

Or she.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points ago

Given the history and demographics of the city...getting made fun of for being Jewish is not the same as being mad fun of for being Muslim, for example. I would suggest different courses of action for each.

[–]Askol -1 points0 points ago

getting made fun of for being Jewish is not the same as being mad fun of for being Muslim

Why not? I really see no difference, they're both insulting somebody's religion.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

I didn't see any protests for a Jewish Synagogue being built a couple blocks away from the WTC, I did see a mosque protested. They're not the same.

[–]devils0508 4 points5 points ago

for example, 1/3 of NYC is jewish, it's really not a minority there, and most things can be taken as a joke since everyone has a bajillion jewish friends.

[–]AscythopicismSunnyside 19 points20 points ago*

Exactly. Unless he's Hindu. Those fucks have no right taking Christmas off.

Edit: Hah, perhaps I need to work on my comedic delivery.

[–]ksemel 9 points10 points ago

There's only two things I can't stand, people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

[–]roboduck 18 points19 points ago

Man, look at all those downvotes. C'mon Hindus, this was clearly a joke. Don't have a cow, man!

[–]DidntLearnEEmuch -1 points0 points ago

Wow

[–]cboogie 2 points3 points ago

Are you sure they are going to bring it up again? I would not worry yet. But if you are made to be uncomfortable repeatedly after telling them to stop then bring it up with HR. Human Resources is not there so you don't have to be an adult and tell them to stop.

Recording them is legal but I would not do it. You seem new to the job and if you are, ultimately you want to get along with your coworkers and be able to have a good time, right? but if you record them you will be known among everyone as "the sneaky recording guy" and no one will ever talk to you.

Plus I hate to say it but it's New York. Some people get off on ribbing and putting down others. But they want you to shoot it right back at them. Chances are if they are making fun of your religion, and celebrating Christmas, they are probably Catholic. If that's the case bust their chops about the pedophilia scandal that have been going on for centuries.

Also be proud of who you are. Fuck em.

[–]tootie 2 points3 points ago

Just email HR. You don't need a recording. The bully will get a warning and will probably never bother you again. They probably didn't become jerks this week and may have previous warnings on record that get them fired.

[–]Radico87 1 point2 points ago

I don't believe in fairy tales and don't shove it down other's throat and expect others to do the same. Too bad people get so worked up about their imaginary friend without ever taking an objective analytical approach to what they actually allegedly believe.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

I was raised Jewish, but as lax as possible. I worked for nearly 18 months at a company that had a staff 99% comprised of orthodox or hasidic jews (in Brooklyn). When my religion was brought up and how I was an awful person for not celebrating whatever holiday (I never go to temple, and pretty much gave up on the non-family-based parts of judaism years ago), I complained to HR about it. Seeing as HR was a Satmar, nothing was done about it. I then switched jobs.

Why? Because however awful this shit is (and it's pretty terrible, having people say that to you), you don't want to be that guy who sued the place he worked at. Because that will follow you for the rest of your life and make it nigh impossible to land a job.

[–]Sedition7988 0 points1 point ago*

What the fuck does this have to do with /r/nyc?

And suing them? Seriously? Grow some fucking back bone. I'm sure you get made fun of by your co-workers for a lot more then your religion; You sound like a total spazz.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

Go fuck yourself. Its in nyc because of the legalities of what I can do or shouldn't do regarding laws I'm not familiar with.

[–]Sedition7988 0 points1 point ago

Then go talk to a lawyer, not reddit.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

Speak to your HR dept and not reddit?

[–]thisfunnieguy 1 point2 points ago

Anyone have military-to-civilian experience here? this seems almost funny. I'd say 1/3 of all conversations I have with other Marines involves making fun of people / harassing people and religion/sex/race/etc is not off limits.

[–]room23 0 points1 point ago

OORAH, towel-heads and slit-eyes can take a joke, can't they? Can't remember any of the chinks or wetbacks in my corp ever complaining. They tried to send me back into civilian life but I couldn't stand all the PC crap - blah blah don't use racialized insults when horsing around in the lunchroom. What's the point of humor if you can't poke holes in people's race, religion, or gender identity?

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]room23 1 point2 points ago

Preaching to the choir buddy. Did you hear about those cuntdykes at the air force academy? Either put up or shut up, but don't come into OUR toughguy military if you're not prepared for some well-intentioned teasing and traditional hazing.

[–]ryangravenerWilliamsburg 1 point2 points ago

I'm sure they were joking at your expense. Apart from this incident are you treated equally all other times? Log what you believe is harassment and go to HR if it happens again. HR should take care of the issue and if they fail to do so, only then will you have a strong case. If you do not have HR, you may want to go to EEOC.

[–]thisfunnieguy 1 point2 points ago

how can they make fun of your for being of a certain religion when you say "I'm not a religious person"

are you counting atheism as your religion?

[–]musicsexual 3 points4 points ago

A friend of mine isn't religious, but was born into a Jewish family. He gets REALLY butthurt at Jewish jokes. You wouldn't think he'd get butthurt, considering he SAYS he's not religious AND he asks people to make jokes at his expense.

If you were a certain race, but you say "I'm not a cultural person," racist jokes can still be hurtful.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

Pretty much this. I got irritated because I saw they were going out of their way to purposly get me mad. I didn't show it but it worked. I will let it go because this isn't the hill I want to die on, and tbh sueing is not something I want to do, but will if its my last option. Its not worth it but still sucks.

[–]eastonsharton 0 points1 point ago*

seems like you could probably just respond honestly, that you don't want to be made fun of, and they'd let it go. often people who are messing with you are just trying to entertain and aren't very good at it so they settle for getting a rise out of you. doesn't sound like it's worth making it a legal issue imho.

Edit: technically all kinds of things can be big to-dos involving the state if you want it that way, but why? for what? will that make them like you? will that ingratiate you to future employers who run background checks? don't get me wrong, if it's legit harassment where you feel intimidated or something, do what you need to do, but i don't know anybody who doesn't get hassled a little bit now and again.

[–]econleech 0 points1 point ago

Being a Jew is not just a religion, it's also an ethnicity. He may not be religious, but he can still be Jewish.

[–]soybean -1 points0 points ago

Let me guess, you are an atheist.

[–]einexile 1 point2 points ago

And you think they called him a fake atheist, because he was just raised that way but he doesn't actually practice?

[–]a1icey -1 points0 points ago

to be honest, hate me all you like, but having to fill in for my non-christian friends on their religious holidays and then having them take extra time off around christmas always makes me very irritated. that's the one thing i can't stand about "diverse" new york culture. it's really hard to express how angry that makes people feel, and i am sure that anger is where this hateful situation came from.

[–]sharked 0 points1 point ago

are they just breaking balls?

[–]hockeygoaltender30 0 points1 point ago

Don't take this the wrong way but maybe you should get thicker skin. They obviously know it bothers you which is probably what makes them continue doing it. Getting HR involved might make it worse and cause underlying resentment. I would only get HR involved if management is using your religion to discriminate against you.

[–]MerliSYD 1 point2 points ago*

Sue them? Why? Because they offended you?... lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9HRLvfbauA

[–]sheiladikshit -1 points0 points ago*

I'm not a religious person

then quit being overly sensitive

This bothered my throughout the whole weekend

you sound like youre in 2nd grade

edit: oh yea, op is a faggot

[–]azdakE.Vill 1 point2 points ago

The topic of me being of a certain religion

Alright...

I'm not a religious person

Que?

[–]Waveridr85 -1 points0 points ago

Watch out guys. Everyone in this thread may soon be getting sued. He's got a good app for recording the internet.

This is how SOPA starts, with ideas like this. SUE SUE SUE

[–]TheDood715 -2 points-1 points ago

You're so lucky!

See what happens now, is NOW you get to sue their "fake ____" asses off!

[–]kofwarcraft 0 points1 point ago

I'm not sure the legal stance in NY of recording things in the workplace. I would talk to HR about it first, and if that doesn't work, talk to a lawyer. You shouldn't have to deal with this in the workplace environment.

[–]Eurynom0sMorningside Heights 5 points6 points ago*

I wouldn't talk to HR first, he should just talk to a lawyer. HR is just looking out for the company, even if recording is legal they'll probably just say no to try to minimize any potential problems for the company.

[–]MJGSimple 4 points5 points ago

That's not at all how it is supposed to work. I think he should definitely talk to HR. HR is supposed to help the employee deal with these issues and if no resolution can be found then the employee has proof that he/she has taken the appropriate course of action. I definitely don't think this is worth jumping to the "talk to a lawyer" conclusion yet, especially if the company has "Diversity Training" or addresses these sorts of issues in an employee handbook. Then the company is not at fault and it'll end up being this person that makes the situation bad enough for themselves that they lose a job without compensation.

[–]Waveridr85 0 points1 point ago

Honestly, come on, I think you may be taking this a bit to far.

Who cares, brush it off, in the end you will be the bigger person and you wont have to deal with all the hassle. Life is just easier that way.

This is coming from a person who has been picked on for a good portion of my life

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