this post was submitted on
124 points (74% like it)
190 up votes 66 down votes
shortlink:
to anything interesting: news article, blog entry, video, picture...

123
124

I love this game (self.DotA2)

submitted ago by sc0tt3h

top 200 commentsshow all 213
sorted by:
best
hot
new
controversial
top
old

[–]Narrative_Causality 97 points98 points ago

Coming from League of Legends, I didn't really like this game. But as I play it more and more I'm really beginning to enjoy it more than LoL.

[–]Gittum 35 points36 points ago

Came here to post this. I'm not entirely sure what it is about this game but I feel like what I do actually matters. In LoL I can absolutely dominate but if 2 other lanes fail miserably I'm screwed. Not sure why I feel like this game is way different, probably the long CC durations and ultimates that are actually ultimate.

[–]Narrative_Causality 32 points33 points ago

Ha, might just be because no one has flash. I know if I'm going in for a gank in a lane that I'm going to either get it or I fuck up and it's my fault they don't die. In LoL the best you can hope for is that they burn their flash, then try again later when they're going to be more cautious.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/trollwitchdoctorJoinRedditTheySaid 22 points23 points ago

now that you have played both, how do you feel about Riot's "anti-fun" rhetoric?

[–]Albaek 27 points28 points ago

I think the "it's available for everyone so it's balanced" philosophy is worse. That's the response I've gotten every time I complained about Flash on the League of Legends' forums.

[–]WinterAyars 14 points15 points ago

It's strange how it's obvious Flash is bad for the game to anyone who plays DotA, but League players seem oblivious. Maybe it's because DotA had the horrible blink dagger era....

[–]JamesofN 12 points13 points ago

They're not oblivious. A large amount of the population has been waiting for Flash to be removed for a long time and replaced with some kind of item like a Blink Dagger (I believe the intention was to have the active placed on a pair of boots called Yordle Stompers but it never went through).
The problem with Flash is that Riot can't remove it. They have designed their game from the beginning around the idea that anyone can have a free blink (hence the large amount of heroes with in built blinks or quick movement abilities, used to catch up with people who Flash away.) In comparison heroes that have quick travel abilities in Dota are few and far between.
Because of the prevalence of these heroes, the instant Flash gets removed (which is a very good idea, Flash is fucking retarded) all the heroes with quick gap closers clearly outpower those without since the latter relied on that which was removed.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/LeeBa/mAc1d 1 point2 points ago

The most common suggestion was making the flash ability like the dagger i.e. if you take damage --> 3 seconds cooldown

[–]Boibi 8 points9 points ago

Hey! That's not fair. I've played League for almost 2 years now and I've complained about the Flash dominated meta for 1.5 years of those. Us multiple MOBA players aren't all just stupider because we play a different game as well.

[–]WinterAyars 1 point2 points ago

(In fairness, I've played League since beta.)

[–]Zakkeh 0 points1 point ago

At one point, probably a year ago or so now, Riot said they'd remove flash. There was even an image of a new item being developed to take the place, probably somewhat similar to blink dagger.

I always ask my LoL friends if flash has been removed yet. The day they say yes I'll try it again.

[–]Disolve 9 points10 points ago

They wanted to remove Flash but several of their designers were against it internally. They weren't against it because they thought having flash was a good thing, they were against it because the removal of flash makes several champions immediately unviable and completely shifts the meta. It would require a ton of champion balancing, item creation and in honesty, probably map redesign in order to remove flash and not have it fuck up the game completely.

[–]Boibi -1 points0 points ago

The image was an item that existed in beta. They didn't like it and I don't think it's coming back. They have been nerfing flash a lot though. I think they know that their playerbase would rage if they removed it, and that some champs would become worthless, but they're working on removing it slowly and subtlely.

[–]Dark21 0 points1 point ago

Well, technically that's true. If everyone has equal access to it, then it is balanced; however, this doesn't mean it's a good design choice.

In other words: It's fair, but it makes for stale gameplay.

[–]_rai 0 points1 point ago

It's better for some champs than others, making it a more complex mechanic than you'd suggest. Infinity Edge was available to all characters but was too good -- they had to nerf it. It was overpowered for certain characters able to utilize it to the utmost.

[–]clone56 35 points36 points ago

from the first time i read it 2 years ago, I thought it was the biggest bunch of bullshit

[–]margaryna 0 points1 point ago

That's not really the issue... LoL is more newbie friendly. There's less to learn in LoL. Noone will deny your creep if you fuck up last hit and leave it with 10 hp, your offensive abilities don't affect your allies, except for 3 heroes there's noone that you could troll your team with. In DotA you have to learn heroes abilities, and be on constant lookout what your enemies are building. In LoL it is clear- you have 2 summoners, 4 abilities and that's it. You know what to expect of that hero. In DotA everyone can have blink. Everyone can be invisible. Everyone can have mana-burn, silence, DoT etc. etc.

LoL is better for learning basics, but in DotA you have a feeling that your actions really matter...Ultimates are really ultimates, not just another skill. There's nothing more satisfying than placing a perfect Chronosphere in their whole team, saving your teammate with Meat Hook, or catching that one guy with Juggs ult.

I still play LoL. I also play DotA2. It all depends on what level you play. If you're new, then mana-burning, dodge, invisibility etc. is really frustrating and "anti-fun", because you can't really do anything to counter it(okay,invis is easily counterable, but explain that to someone who learns how to last hit).

[–]Narrative_Causality 4 points5 points ago

The what now?

[–]AllBees 9 points10 points ago

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=293417

Also relevant that came up recently:

http://clgaming.net/redtracker/topic/26518/?p=1

[–][deleted] ago*

[deleted]

[–]demoness 1 point2 points ago

This is perfect from the perspective of a company who needs to release new and better champions in order to get people to pay money for them, but I consider it intellectually dishonest to say that it's great gameplay design when a self-imposed limited pool of mechanics forces you to release champions which outclass other champions you've already released, to the point where you are putting yourself at a large disadvantage if you play that role and choose the older champions in favor of the new ones.

I read everything and totally agree with you, specially on this part which I think is the problem in LOL.

[–]clone56 0 points1 point ago

Very good read, my thoughts exactly.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/pimpmobileTyphron 2 points3 points ago

This is new to me. But wow...

I like both, I really do. But that's some hard bullshit to swallow. 'specially when their game has characters that defy this logic. Then again, this is two years later and their design philosophy may not be shared by everyone on the dev team.

I'm just not sure. I really want to like (and play) both. My two cents, for what's it's worth.

[–]WinterAyars 3 points4 points ago

Not only do their characters defy their own logic, lack of "fun" is one of the common criticisms of League character design. People commonly complain League characters are same-y and boring.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/pimpmobileTyphron 2 points3 points ago

It's the like the game is both fun and not fun at the same time, for some.

It's Schrodinger's night out.

[–]WinterAyars 0 points1 point ago

Well, like all games there are parts that are fun and parts that suck.

[–]SilverChaos 4 points5 points ago

"Some amount of antifun is okay if the fun heavily outweighs the antifun" is their argument.

I actually tend to agree with a lot of their ideas of anti-fun, like I think that everything should have some kind of counterplay that doesn't involve "don't get hit" (As in, Antimage's mana burn is stupid, Silencer's mana burn is better because you can dispel it), but screw the idea of Burden of Knowledge. If you aren't willing to learn what something does, why are you even playing a game.

It can also be mitigated by implementing little tooltips on death about what killed you. Boom, problem solved the first time someone dies to it.

[–]AllBees 3 points4 points ago

They actually already have a primitive kill cam in the game, the UI is just a black box obviously a place holder. It gives the tooltips of all the abilities that damaged you and how much they did. I have not however tested its accuracy, if anyone is interested in turning it on the console commands are

dota_killcam_show 1

dota_sf_hud_killcam 1

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/pimpmobileTyphron 1 point2 points ago

Seriously. Hell, on the last note? The game has a death recap that breaks down what killed you on a per damage basis.

But, again, this was two years before, and a lot has changed since then. Hell one could argue that even Morello's recent posts could be discounted due how champions are released and shows how much this kind of thinking affects the grand scheme (they're really powerful and get toned down for a period of time before getting untoned, or they're really 'weak' and nobody knows just how good they are until much later). In the end the characters end up not being unlike Dota's heroes, and the whole "anti-fun" thing ends looking stupid and ineffective.

[–]steamcommunity.com/id/polysynchronicity/Khrrck 4 points5 points ago

That death tooltip thing has never worked properly for me in LoL

[–]LeaveTheMonkeyBe 7 points8 points ago

You know, Riot's stance on things such as: 1: We don't want to have overly complex hero design 2: "Burden of Knowledge" (having to learn a lot to be good) 3: Not being able to spam skills isn't fun 4: Hard-CC isn't fun 5: Super High damage skills aren't fun (aka, getting instagibbed) 6: Denying/Gold loss isn't fun since you lose resources etc.

[–]Narrative_Causality 7 points8 points ago

I'll agree that hard CC isn't fun(For more info, just play HoN) and I'll admit that sometimes I feel like ragequitting because I die so much and simply can't buy anything.

But on the flipside, all those things work out for me, as well. Denying an enemy a last hit feels good, making them lose gold while I gain gold from them dying ensures that we get ahead and stay ahead.

[–]Krusiv 4 points5 points ago

I've played all three games (HoN/LoL/DotA) and I must say that the CC in HoN feels way longer compared to the other two games. In my opinion DotA 2 is the nice balance between short CC (LoL) and long CC (HoN), which is one reason why I prefer to play DotA.

[–]bakedCake 6 points7 points ago*

I think fun/anti-fun is a vast oversimplification, and really comes off as anti-dota propaganda. Hard CC is a great example. Maybe some people don't like getting stunned, but not every single tiny aspect of the game has to be "FUN!". It's a competitive game, and some skills exist to allow players to get an edge, or affect the flow of a fight. And besides, there are probably people out there who think CC is the funnest thing in the world (rhasta players), so what gives riot the right the label something as anti-fun?

The whole thing is just a way for Riot to justify making their game uber-casual. I'm not saying that's bad, it's just the direction that Riot wants to take the game. Where DotA provides a more punishing, an in turn a more rewarding atmosphere. It's a way for them to rationalize removing difficult or punishing aspects -- a move which affects the competitive ceiling of the game -- in order to make their title more marketable. It's also a clever attempt to sway people onto Riots "side" if they buy into the argument, which could make people close themselves off to DotA without really trying it.

TL;DR it's all smoke and mirrors. a load of BS, imo.

[–]stevedore 13 points14 points ago

In many ways I agree with their stance on hard CC. Blizzard has had some similar musings regarding Rogue PVP in WoW.

The short version is that if a player is consistently put in a position where they can be killed with no real way to react (stunned or otherwise CCd from 100%-0%), they will tend to get very frustrated and it will lead to lower rates of people continuing to play the game - not a good thing. This is why Blizzard has quite significantly pulled back the amount of CC rogues have, but upped their damage (somewhat) to compensate. It also tends to lead to very binary situations: you either have your CC available (or land it) and win, or you don't and lose.

Sure, there are things (in both WoW and DotA) that can be done to avoid it, but, consider the following situation in MM (especially consider it as a lower-level MM game where there isn't a lot of coordination in picks):

Your team picks AM, Veno, Weaver, Blademaster - this isn't beyond the realm of belief in MM - and so you, thinking "hey, we really don't have a lot of good CC", pick up something like Lion or Rhasta to try to help even things out.

The enemy team ends up with Faceless Void, BM, Mirana, Sven, WR - not the most CC they could have, but quite a bit

In this case, it could very commonly happen that you're initiated on by Sven or BM with their stuns, WR catches a good shackle, and the others just gib you. Sure, you could say that you should be more aware, or carry a BKB, or any number of other things, but at the end of the day initiations will happen by both teams, and Rhasta will often be a target thanks to his low durability and (often) relatively high threat.

Being hit by Roar -> Shackleshot several times in a game truly is anti-fun. It removes you from the game in a way that you have no way to affect the outcome (I don't believe BKB can be used if you're already stunned? Certainly not through Roar, but I don't know about shackleshot - I may be mistaken, but BKB is a pretty large hill to get over to reach a point where you can even react to being initiated upon). That's about as much anti-fun as any mechanic can be. I can imagine a lot of new players being turned off Dota because of very similar situations to this.

Now, thanks to the nature of Dota, the impact of these things does often tend to be lessened quite a bit; abilities are generally going to be spread out over a team by the enemies (especially at the lower levels of play where this really matters), so unless you're someone that gets a bull's eye on their back as the person to initiate on, you won't normally get stunned to death. Often, though, especially if you're playing a support, you can be stunned to death (as it were) by just one stun (especially some of the longer ones).

I absolutely believe that it would very significantly detract from the balance and character of Dota to take a similar design decision and reduce the effects of hard CC. Hell, it would make a lot of hard carries nigh-unstoppable. That being said, because they designed the game from the beginning with that ideal in mind, I think it works well for LoL, and their numbers speak for it. They get new players in, and keep them in by doing everything they can to make the game have few points of frustration, wherever possible.

[–]BLAOW 0 points1 point ago

You make valid points..but there is an item much cheaper than bkb for countering being initiated on...wards!

Also, a team with AM Weaver and Blademaster deserves to lose

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/trollwitchdoctorJoinRedditTheySaid 0 points1 point ago

Just to clarify you don't gain gold when you deny, but they lose the potential money and good part of the experience. Ranged heroes loose even more exp than melee heroes.

[–]Narrative_Causality 6 points7 points ago

The comma was to separate those two thoughts. Denying feels good; making them die and lose gold does, too.

[–]trollCHEEFtin 0 points1 point ago

i was wrong in the last post melee take a 66% reduction to exp, and ranged is a 33% reduction. my b breh.

[–]Zidji 4 points5 points ago*

Nope, it's the other way around, melee gets 66% of the exp, a 33% exp reduction. Ranged heros only get 33% of the exp, 66% reduction.

This is to help out melees in the lane, since ranged heros have a natural advantage.

[–]Wiebelhaus -3 points-2 points ago

Y'all can talk all kinds of shit but LoL is an amazing iteration of this genre and so is dota2.

[–]Bob_Sled 1 point2 points ago

"4:Hard-CC isn't fun"

I think its kinda ironic that they say that. In LoL almost every freaking champion has a slow. For the time I tried it out, I found myself getting cleanse and whatever the item that shrugs off any CC is 90% of the time. Being slowed was so iritating compared to the hard-cc mechanics of dota. Atleast in dota, when you're stunned, you know what's comming. In LoL, there is almost never a teamfight where everyone isn't slowed.

[–]rustafur 0 points1 point ago

Yes, please elaborate JRTS!

[–]crazindndude 7 points8 points ago

Not sure how that plays into it. The "anti-fun" rhetoric is about abilities/heroes that don't have a fair effort:output ratio, or abuse certain mechanics.

Compared to LoL's abilities, Dota 2 just dials everything to 11. To put it one way, everything is overpowered. Which is fine, because everything is overpowered. Dota has hit a second equilibrium point.

[–]Nuublet 8 points9 points ago

Exactly. This is why broodwar was so fucking awesome as well. Fucking Siege Tanks that would rape everything and Reavers that would one shot a mineral line. If everyone is overpowered the game can still be balanced.

True for CS 1.6 as well to a degree, one shot kills a lot of weapons and very unforgiving gameplay.

I really feel this is a serious shortcoming of 'modern' games where they find some sort of mathematical formula for balance but they just end up making everything feel bland as fuck.

[–]comedic_implement 7 points8 points ago

Wow I honestly think you nailed it. This is exactly what has been turning me off in LoL.

Basically the core game design idea in league is "spells are fun". To increase the number of spell casts, they can do any of the following

1) Increase mana pool 2) Increase mana regen 3) Decrease Mana cost 4) Decrease cooldown

...they do all 4.

To compensate, they reduce damage...significantly. Spells basically all become irrelevant save a few spells that have been subsequently nerfed (gangplank and nidalee's Q come to mind). those were great, super "fun" spells to use. Gangplank was probably the only champ that could really turn into a megacarry like dota...but not anymore :(

[–]DrakenZA 0 points1 point ago

I guess. But considering dota came before LoL, its better to say that LoL powers are all nerfed down and made to have low cooldowns/mana cost to promote spam.

Where as dota2 is about smart play and team work.

[–]JamesofN 4 points5 points ago

I said it when it was posted and I'll say it again now.
Its retarded.
I made a comment about it here.
Basically, designing new champions only to ensure that both new and veteran players can play them well without any real understanding on the new players part severely limits the creativity they can exercise.
Someone as cool and unique as Invoker will never exist in LoL because it's too difficult for new players to understand what he does, so rather than increase the learning curve they just limit themselves to very same-y designs.
Theres a reason that almost every champion they release now is a tanky melee dps with a gap closer and a shield and some kind of CC.
They're all iterations on a formula instead of unique experiences. Imagine if Icefrog decided that he only wanted to release simple heroes that new players could understand now, so every patch he released a hero that was basically Clinkz with a slight twist.

[–]leprechaun1066 1 point2 points ago*

I don't think any games should have something that is anti-fun, but I wouldn't say that DOTA2 has anything that is anti-fun (which riot comments seem to imply). It's just less forgiving than LoL and if you fuck up you get punished while in LoL if you fuck up you can still make a good recovery. I like both games, but I play each with a different mindset. I have to be far more alert and aware of what's going on in DOTA2, but in LoL as long as I place a ward and glance at the minimap every now and then, I'll sit back and farm safely.

EDIT: Also what I really don't like about Riot is how they insist that champions be easy enough to play. They apparently had a really cool set up for the Monkey King, but then they decided it was too difficult for some players and turned him into a lackluster easy to play champion. I think they rank Cassiopeia as the most difficult champion to play, but I find her really easy especially when compared to some DOTA2 heroes.

[–]Serneum 0 points1 point ago

Orianna and Cassiopeia are the only two champions listed at 100 (max) difficulty/skill. I find Orianna quite simple and very fun to play. Both of them are also extremely obscure, so you can play them and people have no idea how to react.

EDIT: And I'd agree that both of them are simpler than some of the DotA heroes, especially when you look at heroes like Doombringer who can have up to 6 skills or Invoker who has 10 (?) combinations he can use.

[–]UnholyAngel 0 points1 point ago

DotA and LoL both play very differently and the concept of difficulty means different things in each game.

In DotA most of the difficulty comes from the strategy. You have to be aware and teleport to the right places, you have to use your items correctly and target the right hero and save your abilities to use them correctly. Sure, you could kill Zeus with Doom but you want to save that for the Anti-Mage because otherwise he will blink around and slaughter the team.

In LoL there is much less emphasis on the strategy involved (it isn't gone, despite what a lot of people seem to think). You generally don't need to save your abilities very much, you rarely have to budget mana anywhere near as much, and without TP scrolls there is less helping out the entire map.

That being said, in LoL it is more difficult to use your specific champion effectively. Almost everything of importance is a skillshot, which means abilities like Pudge's meat hook are the standard, not stuff like Zeus and his point and click adventures.

Cassiopeia, for example, is all about hitting her Q. Her Q sets off a small cloud of poison after a short delay. This poison lasts about three seconds and has a cooldown of about three seconds, so you are constantly spamming this ability. Her E is a single target nuke, but if the enemy is poisoned it resets it's cooldown to .5 seconds. In practice, this means that Cassi does monstrous amounts of damage, but only if she manages to hit the enemy with her Q. Every three seconds you have to hit a small aoe ability or your damage is gimped.

In fact this is basically the norm for LoL champions. Nidalee's main damage output is her Q, which is a long range spear that does damage to the first enemy it hits based on distance traveled. A miss means she does very little damage, a hit can be deadly. Brand has a pillar of fire he needs to aim and a skillshot nuke hits the first enemy in its path for damage and a stun. Vayne, who has condemn (her E) which knocks the enemy back and does bonus damage and stuns only if the enemy is knocked into a wall. Ezreal, who has a short cooldown nuke that shoots the first target in a line and reduces his cooldowns when it hits, a line damage ability, and a global ult that hits all enemies in a line (with a moderate speed animation). While there are less inspired champion designs, the vast majority are interesting in at least some ways and most have more to them than "select the correct enemy."

[–]SoberPandaren 0 points1 point ago

I think they could build an entire argument that's way better then that.

[–]Gittum 0 points1 point ago

I disagree with it for the most part. Without having things that are just not fun to go against, you don't have the sense of satisfaction when you beat it. Tidehunter pisses me off to no end because fuck Ravage and because of that I'm real happy whenever one dies and I can laugh at his big gay fish body.

LoL's anti-fun rhetoric is turning every champion into the same champion. Aside from this new guy, Ziggs, their last 3 or 4 champion introductions have been incredibly boring and underwhelming.

[–]BrandonReinhart 2 points3 points ago

What is Flash?

[–]Narrative_Causality 3 points4 points ago

In League of Legends each person can use two summoner spells; they're extra abilities that give your hero two extra abilities, with long cooldowns. For example, one of them heals you, another restores mana, another does insane damage to creeps, etc. Flash enables you to teleport. It has a semi-short range and a long cooldown, but it's pretty good for...just about everything. Ganking, running away, getting over walls. Pretty much everyone takes it because it's so good.

[–]Krusiv 2 points3 points ago

In League of Legends you can choose two Summoner Spells to use on top of your normal 4 abilities. One of the Summoner Spells, Flash, is a free blink. Right now it has ~3 minute cooldown and doesn't pop projectiles.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/pimpmobileTyphron 0 points1 point ago*

It's almost like Flash breaks the game, like the old Twitch did. And that worked out well for Twitch when they were forced to either balance him or the entire game around him after all the mounting pressure to move on, right?

...right?

[–]Narrative_Causality 1 point2 points ago

Unfortunately, it may very well be that the game is balanced around Flash and removing it will only break it farther at this point.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/pimpmobileTyphron 1 point2 points ago

That was the unfortunate point of my post. And what infuriates me so. They could, eventually, design the game and characters to the point where Flash's only hard counter is Flash, but that may be a far ways away from the current "tanky dps with insane damage or bust" metagame the game has going on.

That said, I still like LoL as much as Dota. It's not a terrible game, it just needs help. And I would like to believe Riot is good people.

[–]WinterAyars 0 points1 point ago

It's a high price, but the game is broken and needs to be fixed.

[–]clone56 0 points1 point ago

Flash = anti-fun. It is the main reason I quit LoL, that one fucking spell in the game makes LoL the most frustrating thing ever. I have had my fair share of dota and HoN rage moments but nothing takes LoL's flash. It doesnt matter how beatiful gank you pull off, flash they live

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/pimpmobileTyphron 0 points1 point ago

As said before, that's Flash's biggest balance weakpoint: the only way to counter it is with flash.

[–]solskugga 0 points1 point ago

Well you hit the nail on the head sir/lady. I always call LoL "Flash: the game" cause how a nice gank you set up they can always get a free pass for playing sloppy. Although you can tp out of a gank if they dont have any cc up its still way more baller then just flash.

[–]AlonsoQ 4 points5 points ago

That's an interesting observation about the ults. It's not the first time I've heard it, and I wonder about the foundation of that impression.

Nearly every champ in LoL has some sort of huge long cooldown nuke or buff. DotA has plenty of powerful, flashy ults like those on Tide, Lion, or Warlock, but also has a bigger share of spammable, utility, or passive ults like on Slardar, Riki, or Drow. Are skills like Chronosphere and Black Hole splashy enough to make players not care about the boring ults, or is there something else supporting this perception? Is DotA more willing to concentrate most of a hero's worth into their ult?

[–]Managor 2 points3 points ago

Some of the heroes don't rely on their ultis to thrive. For example tiny needs his 1st and 2nd skill or pugna should max his ward before ulti.

If I misunderstood you, could you axplain a bit further

[–]AlonsoQ 0 points1 point ago

I don't mean that every DotA hero depends heavily on their ult. That's obviously not true in many cases, such as those you mention. There are some heroes that do gain most of their utility from their ults, however. I'm wondering whether there are more of those heroes in DotA than in LoL, and if their dependence is greater.

If this were true, we might say (to make up some numbers) that LoL champs gain 30-50% of their power from their ult, while DotA heroes gain 20-60%.

[–]Managor 2 points3 points ago

Quite true. LoL heroes are a bit watered down on variation.

[–]AlonsoQ 0 points1 point ago

You could say watered down, you could say more consistent. LoL does have a couple champs designed from the ground up to have no ults. I enjoy playing both Udyr and Slardar, but the latter does feel a little hodge-podge.

[–]forRuinSC 0 points1 point ago

o.o ... Slardar's ult is fantastic, and has a lot of utility.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/PKMNZbrotrr 11 points12 points ago

It's because of flash and the fact that towers do so much damage. This results in an extremely small window of opportunity to actually pull off a successful gank, and many times it's not even worth the effort to head down to another lane to help gank and push it.

Not only that, but there are more minions and the only teleport you have is a summoner skill which people rarely take, which means that even if you do pull off a gank, it's a free tower for whichever lane you left.

All those reasons turn LoL into an extremely passive game where ganks only really work 10 minutes into the game where you can actually survive a couple of tower hits and where failing a gank means you're extremely far behind.

This is in comparison to Dota, where even if you leave your lane, the lane will not push as hard due to minions being in lower numbers and lower attack damage, as well as the existence of tele scrolls and towers doing pretty much the equivalent of two hero autoattacks.

[–]DSSCRA 10 points11 points ago*

most ganks in lol are done by the jungler (in lol there is one in pretty much every mid level game and up) so ganks start when ever the jungler finishes their first clear of the jungle. For the fastest jungles that is around 3:20.

Edit: god this subreddit is downvote happy

I was refuting the point he made about ganks only working 10 minutes into the game if you force them to flash when you first gank their lane then they either have to play passive (ie your teammate in that lane can farm fairly easily) or they keep playing the same and they die when you gank them again in the 4 minutes that their flash is down. Also the point he made about ganks losing you cs in lol almost every early gank is by the jungler who doesn't have a tower to lose and doesn't lose much cs when ganking between clears.

[–]Labradoodles 2 points3 points ago

I didn't have much of an idea of how jungleinng worked in LOL. Thanks for the insight into the metagame.

[–]Umtard 3 points4 points ago

At the moment the meta is very slanted towards jungling. It's absoloutely required that you have one and in recent tournaments a lot of the focus has been on laners that can apply pressure and assist their teams jungler in stealing the enemy jungle. Atleast that's how IEM Kiev went down.

[–]UnholyAngel 0 points1 point ago

Basically one person "lanes" in the jungle. They clear all the creep camps that spawn. If that is all they do the end up with a little less gold than someone who farms a lane well and somewhere between duo lane and solo lane experience.

However, junglers are also gankers - after all you don't have vision in the enemy jungle so they can easily come up to your lane. This is even better for the jungler than a laner in part because they don't even have to go very far out of their way - they were walking by the lane anyway, they might as well walk a little further and show up to try to get a kill.

[–]WinterAyars 1 point2 points ago

I don't think it's so much the amount of damage towers do as it is how close together they are. Even if you're in the middle of the lane, just flash backwards and you're safe 90% of the time.

[–]UnholyAngel 0 points1 point ago

Keep in mind though that LoL has a dedicated jungler in basically every game. No one has to leave a lane in order for ganks to happen. Furthermore, there are no teleport scrolls. This means there isn't as strong a response to ganks because no one can really help you. In DotA I can play CM and teleport up to freeze the guy ganking you and net the team a kill. In LoL I can't really do that unless it's my summoner spell, so you are on your own.

Flash has a pretty hefty cooldown, and you have a summoner spell slot too. Yes, it helps them get away because they can get much closer to their turret, but they aren't getting any help from their allies, you have a summoner yourself (could be a pretty massive slow, flash of your own, a large movespeed increase, or even just bonus true damage) and you can literally get ganked at any point.

To illustrate this point, imagine you are playing a normal game of DotA. As long as all five heroes are accounted for you aren't going to be ganked. If someone goes missing you have to be more careful. If you get ganked your allies can teleport in to help, and because CC is much stronger you can easily turn the gank around. This means they have to be very sure they can kill you quickly and get out. Even more, there are so many ways to stop pushing (denying, creep pulling, creep blocking) that it is trivial to keep the lane away from the enemy tower if you are dedicated.

In LoL you can't stop your lane from pushing - the best you can do it let your creeps die to the enemy tower to reset the lane. You won't get any support when your lane is ganked, so turning a gank around is harder. Furthermore, you can be ganked at almost any time because there is a player dedicated to running around in the jungle at all times. This person generally is chosen in part for their CC and ability to gank, which means that you have to constantly be worried about a gank. Sure, you can flash away, but after you use flash it's down for quite some time, making the lane less safe (the enemy has flash and you don't) meaning you could be zoned a bit.

Really, I think the reason ganks seem better in DotA and it feels more aggressive is because abilities are so much stronger. In LoL there is a spell that is a 3 second fear (hard CC). That is at max rank, which requires at minimum level 9 (5 ranks in the spell). That is literally all it does - it's a 3 seconds disable. Compare this to CM's frostbite - CM does 210 magic damage in addition the her 3 seconds disable and has a shorter cooldown on her ability. This also only takes level 7 to achieve.

If you think about that, it makes sense. If I show up to gank top in LoL I have my damage and CC, but the enemy has flash and it's hard for me to kill them that quickly. I need them to either be weakened or I need them pushed out pretty far because I just can't drop them that fast. In DotA I can show up and they just disintegrate because everything is stronger in DotA. I can hit them for stronger CC than I can in LoL while doing more damage.

[–]junkimchi 4 points5 points ago

less heals, more control of mechanics, better synergized heroes, tp's, balanced items, balanced playing field.

[–]ShyGuysOnStilts 5 points6 points ago

I'm not entirely sure what it is about this game but I feel like what I do actually matters. In LoL I can absolutely dominate but if 2 other lanes fail miserably I'm screwed.

Prepare to be disappointed.

[–]JilaX 3 points4 points ago

No flash, and the fact that those you kill actually lose gold. Plus, you don't get "punished" for killing players over and over again. In LoL you get less gold per kill as the streak goes on. DotA rewards the enemy when they kill you, not before.

[–]Boibi 6 points7 points ago

I dunno. I feel like I depend more on the other lanes to do well in Dota than in League. Also, I like the ults that feel more like 4th skills. That's why I love Enchantress, Invoker, Akali, Udyr, Tiny, Bristleback, and Riki and the like. Passive and short cooldown ults make me happy.

I still like both for different reasons. I like League for being able to play a nuker carry. I like Dota because it feels like team play actually matters. I like League because I like bush control and zoning more than I like denying. I like Dota because Rosh feels more impactful than Baron. I like League because Jungle buffs can be stolen and junglers are more varied. I like Dota because you don't need a jungler and because you can leave a lane early for ganks without fear of a tower falling.

Then again, I also liked Demigod, Bloodline Champions, and the new Super Monday Night Combat Invitational. I think I'm just a MOBA-whore.

[–]clone56 1 point2 points ago

WEll said my friend, I have been a gamer since I was 10 (im 30 now) and the "moba genre is the best gaming experience I have ever had. It gives me everythign I want in a game..progression leveling, items, spells, PvP, in a short time span. I meant short as compared to MMO's

[–]myweedishairy -1 points0 points ago

More burst damage, more creative gameplay, a much higher EXP ceiling, what items you build matters.

[–]oogaboogacaveman 0 points1 point ago

in DotA, everything is more extreme (tried not to sound lame, it didn't work).

What I mean is this, there are more stuns, and more escapes. The map is bigger, but everyone moves faster. There are more utility items, there are more expensive dps items, there are items that completely change a game (I haven't played a ton of LoL, but in my experience there's nothing quite as significant as say, an earthshaker getting his blink).

[–]Slurmz 1 point2 points ago*

How I like to see it is that in DotA everything is stronger: spells, stun duration, etc. This means you can do way cooler shit than LoL just by yourself, and with some good teamwork you can wipe a team, e.g. an enigma ult followed by SF ult. In LoL, for the brief time that I played it, everything felt weaker, and it really took away some of the awesomeness and epic moments that define DotA for me.

[–]JamesofN 4 points5 points ago

I came to Dota 2 with the intention of playing both games equally.
Havn't played a game of LoL since Fizz.

[–]Tvilli 4 points5 points ago

Same but i always had loved dota brom beginning

[–]veggiedealer 18 points19 points ago

that's not the same

[–]Tvilli 7 points8 points ago

It is half-same though!

[–]shut_up_mimsy 1 point2 points ago

Coming from League of Legends, I fell in love with the game from the very first game I played. One game was enough for me to realize Dota 2 has so much more depth than LoL. Graphics and art style also seemed far superior than what LoL had to offer (although opinions on that matter may differ). Needless to say I never went back to LoL.

[–]Narrative_Causality -2 points-1 points ago

I never played DOTA before LoL, though I did play some HoN after I started playing LoL. Immediately went back to LoL because HoN's heroes are bullshit ability after bullshit ability.

I had thought that DOTA and HoN were the same thing. While it's true they have the same heroes and play the same(couriers, buyback, etc.) they AREN'T the same. DOTA2 is a lot more fun than HoN, and more fun than LoL, at the end of the day.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/LeeBa/mAc1d -1 points0 points ago

Well for one...

In LoL you build every champ the same way, in DotA 2 not so much and there is a ton of ways to build one single champion.

Also in LoL, the mechanics are simple and straight forwards, unlike DotA .Which is why I cant wait for meepo to get ported.

There's more but I'm not gonna go on now

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/zekromMfisk323 -1 points0 points ago

Same here, and if there's one thing I love about Dota 2 over LoL, NO FLASH! The thing is, I hated flash with a burning passion, probably because It ruined so many perfectly planned ganks that I've done, and it bothers me that everyone uses it. :/ Playing Dota is a nice change of pace from LoL because it offers a lot more hero variety and challenge.

[–]logarythm 0 points1 point ago

I fell over pretty fast. Everything in this game feels so much more powerful, haha.

[–]gg-shostakovich 8 points9 points ago

And this is only the Beta.

[–]1919 2 points3 points ago

Woah dude. Don't jinx it.

Minecrafters said the same thing, and look at it now. Still sorta fun to play, but less immersion. You can't get 'lost' in it anymore.

[–]clone56 0 points1 point ago

As someone who never played Minecraft what do you mean? Alwyas kinda interested in trying it but graphics turned me away

[–]1919 1 point2 points ago

I have played minecraft for a while, since the initial beta launch (though those in Alpha and Indev have been along longer). At first the game was just 'meh' to me. I didn't love it or hate it. But about 1.4 beta, things started getting fantastic. New ideas were being pumped in that weren't just 'fixes' for things that were bad. There were options, things to do.

The piston was the last 'great' addition to the game. It allowed another level of mechanical achievements and building. After that, Mojang focused more on customizing how you play, instead of customizing the world. They added potions, made food a constant worry, enchanting. General stuff like that.

Adding cats was the first big mistake. It seemed like they're caving into the masses "We want cats because dog people get dogs!" instead of focusing on the actual gameplay.

In short

buy the game. It is fantastic. BUY IT, the graphics are fantastic when you get used to them.

But always wonder 'what if' you joined earlier.

[–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/forgoroeForgoroe 7 points8 points ago

Words cannot describe the love I feel towards this game.

[–]skyTree 0 points1 point ago

Even only reading all the comments here make me want to play right now, though my last game is nly eight hours ago...

[–]adius 15 points16 points ago

I like how this game is too cool and hardcore to have the reddit alien at the top

[–]Classic™ReaverXai 43 points44 points ago

This isn't reddit anymore - THIS IS DOTA.

[–]ShinCoal 5 points6 points ago

Whats this reddit you speak of?

[–]Blue_Falcon 0 points1 point ago

So which hero did you kick down the chasm where the ancient blows up at?

[–]skaldicpoet9 -3 points-2 points ago

this is madness?...

[–]xsidekick409 4 points5 points ago

no.

[–]smoogums 4 points5 points ago

If love to see reddit artwork to look like dota heroes in. the banner

[–]Simco_ 4 points5 points ago

With your grasp of the English language, I assume you've been on my team at least once.

[–]smoogums 0 points1 point ago

Lol I think I wrote this under the influence been in vegas and going through my reddit messages to see this gem.

[–]Juicenewton248 15 points16 points ago

as a person that had 1500 hon games played at 1900 mmr (pre compression, havent played since) i didnt think i would be able to switch to dota 2 with no mana bars, and only AP matchmaking (at the moment).

Boy was i wrong, i've had the game for 2 weeks now and im still addicted as hell, I remember how much fun random gold made matchmaking for me in hon and not having to deal with bi weekly garbage s2 heroes is just so much better.

Also, being able to watch competitive tournament matches EVERY DAY is great, at the moment hon's comp scene is so fucking dead there might be 2 matches played a week

[–]BottleUpAndExplode 6 points7 points ago

I agree that random gold is the best thing about Dota 2 at the moment.

[–]Niserox 0 points1 point ago

Being removed from HoN was the one of the most stupid patches they ever did in that game.

I still remember the logic; HUR DUR, WE DONT WANT PEOPLE TO RANDOM AND RUIN THE GAME FOR OTHER PLAYERS.

Well shit, its a pub, if people want to random and play heroes they may not play often, or can't decide what to choose, don't punish them for it, christ.

[–]BottleUpAndExplode 0 points1 point ago

Exactly. There was nothing better than randoming Scout with the extra gold. :3

[–]Fulllplate 0 points1 point ago

That was pretty much the number 1 thing that drove my away from HoN...dealing with the new heroes. Eventually there were like 10 heroes that I'd never want to play more than once, and more coming out. I actually quit HoN before even getting a Dota 2 key. S2 really fucked up when they stopped porting DotA heroes, even if it wasn't up to them.

[–]xsidekick409 1 point2 points ago

Also, you can look up your favorite players and download a large number of their matches through the client. I'd say any of them, but I'm sure there's a limit.

[–][deleted] ago

[deleted]

[–]toneStark 13 points14 points ago

Ya.. but they are just porting over heroes that have already been proven. So.. technically not 'new'

[–]GIROG 4 points5 points ago

The "new" heroes aren't new at all. They're all direct copies of DotA Allstars heroes.

[–]Juicenewton248 5 points6 points ago

The difference is that the new hon heroes are god awful and either insanely imbalanced or insanely shit

load more comments (1 reply)

    [–]Rokmanfilms 24 points25 points ago

    I'm sure I'd love it to..... If I had a fucking beta key

    [–]macsus 16 points17 points ago

    My friend who had never heard of dota got a beta key 3 days ago. He's played 25 minutes and left before his first game even ended.

    [–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/ryceguseful_helpful 42 points43 points ago

    GAHRGARRHGRHGRHGAHGHGRHGAARIHUUHRURURRHUARHGRGHHGRGHAHRGAHGRAHGRRAUARARHRHGA

    [–]macsus 2 points3 points ago

    Yep, that was pretty close to my reaction. A little more UUUURRRRRGHGHGHRRUUUGHGHG though.

    [–]egzy 2 points3 points ago

    My irl friend accepted key on his steam account and never downloaded the game. Enjoy!

    [–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/ryceguseful_helpful 2 points3 points ago

    you mean ex-friend, right?

    [–]egzy -1 points0 points ago

    nope.

    [–]http://steamcommunity.com/id/ryceguseful_helpful 2 points3 points ago

    Well that makes your RES tag easy.

    [–]IrritatedQuail 1 point2 points ago

    Same thing happened to my friend. Hadn't played a game of dota before in his life. Got an invite 3 days ago.

    I'm sorry rokmanfilms :<

    [–]AJRiddle 0 points1 point ago

    I won an extra beta key on playdota.com and gave it to my best friend. He has played about 5 games in 3 weeks.

    [–]Better than "xReptar!"xLyonklaw 11 points12 points ago

    I'm sorry my friend, we have all felt your struggle. If I had one, I'd give it to you. A fellow redditor had the heart to pass one to me. I wish I had one to give to you.

    [–]mechroid 2 points3 points ago

    I apologize. I'm only in this subreddit because it randomly showed up in my library, no key, no unboxing, no chance to give it to anyone else. It just... appeared. So I decided I should give it a shot, if only to respect those that DIDN'T get one.

    [–]chasehigh 2 points3 points ago

    your not the only one... all my friends got beta keys but not me. I'm quite pissed as well.

    [–]Dinimuetter 0 points1 point ago

    Man, I'd love to give you mine because I don't play it (700ms lag issues).

    [–]CharlesMcAwesome 0 points1 point ago

    A friend of mine got a Beta Key as a prize during the Winter Sale.

    Got me interested, so I looked into what it would take to trade for one using Steam Trading. Some guy wanted Brink in return, so out of Pity I gave him the "Brink complete Pack" which was about $2 more. Best $12 I ever spent.

    [–]Mechamex 0 points1 point ago

    I concur

    [–]logarythm 0 points1 point ago

    ... I see what you did there.

    [–]Chrys7 0 points1 point ago

    Great.

    [–]Dr_ZoidbergHomeowner 0 points1 point ago

    I want to love this game but having yet to actually win a match is really discouraging.

    [–]verywidebutthole 2 points3 points ago

    Came from hon and the stupidest thing made me stay. In hon, if you want to bottle a run you have to activate your bottle and left click on the rune. In dota, a simple right click will do, no matter how full your bottle is.

    [–]SpudRock3t 0 points1 point ago

    It used to be that way in Dota 1, you had to go through the same bottling procedure, same as HoN. I love the new bottling mechanism. Who wouldn't bottle the rune, if they have one?

    [–]EcksTeaSea 2 points3 points ago

    Came from Leagues as well after playing LoL for over 2 years. Don't know what it is about Dota 2, but its insanely more appealing to me than LoL.

    [–]nthdelusion 8 points9 points ago

    devil's advocate: i dont love this game -_-

    [–]Talesavo 26 points27 points ago

    Sucks to be you.

    [–]snakebite654 1 point2 points ago

    Keep playing it will get better =x

    [–]nXiety 0 points1 point ago

    Do you not enjoy ARTS/MOBAs in general? If so, why not Dota 2? I'm genuinely curious.

    [–]nthdelusion 14 points15 points ago

    the art of sarcasm is too hard for me.

    [–]Albaek 3 points4 points ago

    I admit I didn't really like DotA either at first, mostly because when you're coming from LoL there's a lot more mechanics to consider and the game is much more punishing in its nature (losing gold on death, no Flash summoner spell (it's like a short blink with no animation delay which also works in combat), no Recall, a pretty advance stat system, more items to consider and a lot more).

    In other words: The "skill cap" is much higher. Those first few times are hard - even as a support. In turn, this means there's a huge difference between the best players and the worst.

    This skill cap thing is really what makes DotA fun for good people, but it's also what makes it so terribly hopeless for new people, and I believe many doesn't think that going to DotA is worth the time when you're already something in LoL.

    [–]Niserox 1 point2 points ago

    The whole thing about DotA2 that makes it so hard is that I found it can be really intimidating.

    When you first start out and play DotA2, you're put into a game with almost no tutorials or knowledge of the game (unless you researched before hand) and even then, unless you've played DotA1 or HoN before, you have no idea what to expect.

    When you get into your first game, it'll be the exact as getting into your 500th game. You get every hero in the roster available, theres nothing like runes or masteries (LoL) that can help ease you along and get to know things, everyone is the exact same but just separated by their knowledge of the game.

    That being said, you need to learn everything within your first 10 games or so, you need to know what to buy and what is core on most heroes, you need to learn that you can't over extend or else you're going to pay for it with a gold loss and having to TP/run back to lane, you learn that you can't spam spells and this in itself may be the most intimating because then you start to hesitate when a big moment comes and you think to yourself "should I blow my mana here for a possible kill?" and it could easily make your target get away.

    Not only that, but a lot of people when they start out (from my experience personally) get tunnel vision. DotA is a game in general that really relies a lot on moving around the map, ganking and keeping vision of people. Letting someone free-farm a jungle or thinking "we don't need wards yet, I can get them after I get this 700 gold item" can really end up costing you the game.

    Ursa can take a Roshan when your wards are down. Warding/counter-warding is probably one of the most important aspects of the game and yet its left almost untouched by newer players because they think they can just be safe in their lane all game.

    You take a look a game like LoL. Mid will never gank because they end up losing out on too much gold or xp apparently, the jungler only ganks when he feels like it, top lane is usually a 1v1 stand off of the tankiest heroes on your team so its usually a stalemate half the time and bot lane is this clusterfuck of carry/support combos who would be lucky to move from their lane ONCE in 20 minutes. Then you go into DotA2 and its like "OMFG PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY MOVING AND DOING THINGS".

    TL;DR LoL sucks.

    [–]riboruba 0 points1 point ago

    Absolutely. It was only probably after 20 games that I began to like this game more than LoL. But after that, it was constant downhill (to happiness).

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

    I remember my first game of hon being utter misery, not having a clue what was going on and dying all the time, hey that's expected. I imagine everyones first experience of a LoL/HoN/Dota game is going to be a bad one unless they have read up about how the game works.

    [–]Albaek 0 points1 point ago

    True, but LoL is just so much easier to enter compared to DotA/HoN. There are few mechanics and it is overall "not that bad" if you fuck up as it doesn't snowball that hard.

    [–][deleted] ago

    [deleted]

    [–]bobthecrusher 0 points1 point ago

    NEVER! This is reddit dammit, take your jokes and go elsewhere!

    [–]Mooow 1 point2 points ago

    thats literaly the only word to describe my feelings towards this game

    [–]WaitingonDotA 0 points1 point ago

    Yes, I can get on board with this.

    [–]oogaboogacaveman 1 point2 points ago

    QUITE

    [–]DDVM 0 points1 point ago

    I really like Dota 2 and am thinking I will just switch to it from LoL. I have played 1500 games of LoL, respectively, and I feel like playing Dota 2 is a breath of fresh air. I love the difficulty, the size of the map, the spell-kits, the flexible meta and lane compositions, the embrace of stealth, and all the items with unique activates.

    [–]tehace -1 points0 points ago

    What I love about dota is that you can carry a 4 vs 5 game unlike LoL. After just finished playing my first match we had a leaver already and I still carried us with Ursa.

    [–]ofmice13 1 point2 points ago

    Watched LoL streams: Low expecations. Played LoL: Low/Medium Enjoyment.

    Watched HoN streams: Medium expectations. Played HoN: Medium Enjoyment.

    Watched DotA2 streams: High expectations. Waiting anxiously for Beta Key.

    [–]BagelBurner 0 points1 point ago

    It loves you too

    [–]scottrick49 0 points1 point ago

    me too

    [–]Basmustquitatart -1 points0 points ago

    1650 LoL player here, I don't really fancy it. I'm expecting to get down voted for this but...

    Depth is important but there are somethings that are impossible to learn through observation for a new comer. How the jungle works for example, you can stack creeps or prevent them from spawning with wards etc. Or how you can swap tower aggro. I found out this stuff through researching but I had never noticed it in game. I feel you shouldn't have to read guides online to learn this stuff? Maybe when Valve releases a tutorial explaining all these hidden mechanics I'll give it another shot.

    [–]adius 0 points1 point ago

    It's kind of the Judaism of MOBAs. Really old and not well suited for attracting new converts. Many of the players don't even want the game to become more popular because it just means more newbies to potentially screw up their games (though this should be a lot better in DOTA2), plus the whole videogame hipster thing

    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

    An excellently designed tutorial for notoriously one of the hardest games to learn, is something that will make or break Dota2 upon release (in terms of general popularity). A lot of fucking work needs to go into making that tutorial, it needs to be interactive, with Gabes head popping up and pausing the game whilst saying stuff like "he denied your creep there umadbro?"

    hon failed at a tutorial unless theyve changed it since last time i played hon (the day i got my beta key)

    [–]HD_Twinkle -1 points0 points ago

    What a wierd topic. But yes, so do I.

    [–]AnOriginalConcept -2 points-1 points ago

    DotA has tri-laning. My friend refuses to switch from LoL until this metagame changes. It's not fun to watch 2 people farm all game.

    [–]UnholyAngel 0 points1 point ago

    Man, your friend must hate bot lane then. Supports in DotA are much more interesting because there is more to do. TP scrolls give you map presence and creep stacking and pulling gives you things to do beyond sitting in lane babysitting the carry.

    Don't get me wrong, supporting can be fun in both games, but I don't think you can really say it's better in LoL.

    [–]AnOriginalConcept 0 points1 point ago

    Yeah, I avoid bottom lane when possible. With the right characters, mid and top can be played offensively.

    [–]bobthecrusher 1 point2 points ago

    Uh huh....uh huh.....Yeah, I understand some of these words!

    [–]卐卐卐卐SmallSon123 -1 points0 points ago

    I have had it, with these motherfucking LoL-discussions on this motherfucking Dota 2 subreddit! How did we go from "I love this game" to random nonsense about the "flash" ability in LoL?!

    [–]derpherpDouche-a-tron -3 points-2 points ago

    Good for you.

    But useless post.

    Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. © 2012 reddit inc. All rights reserved.

    REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc.

    π Rendered by PID 3354 on app-113 running 86c9e1d.