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[–]ajehals 26 points27 points ago

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The fact that America as a whole is generally so insular.

It isn't unique to the US (Australians seem good at it too), and it is a generalization, but I think it is probably fair and it is mind boggling. I think it also accounts for some of the other points you raised, not least the concept of American excpetionalism and of US superiority and dominance (both of which can be taken to ludicrous lengths and aren't entirely rooted in reality in any case).

One would expect the population of a superpower to be interested in and vocal about issues and places around them, you expect Americans going on grand tours, living in large numbers parts of the world where they have influence etc.. But we don't generally see that.

Apart from being an odd and possibly interesting aspect of what I see of America, I also see it as quite a dangerous thing, it means that Americans are locked in a cycle that re-enforces US positions, rather than looking to see what works abroad. It also means that American democracy, rather than being informed and measured is often more of a nationalistic circus.

In fact if there was one thing I could change about the US it would be this, it wold, in time make such a huge difference, the US might cease to be as militant as it is, it' US citizens might be more nuanced and critical when making political choices and so the US political system may well change somewhat.

[–]joshak 4 points5 points ago* 

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Australia is not insular. We are highly influenced by American and British culture.

For example: of our current top 20 music singles, I can only count 2 Australian artists. If we examined the movie ticket sales and book sales I'm sure we'd see a similar story.

[–]ajehals 6 points7 points ago

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I'd have to disagree, Australia is not as insular as the US, but it is noticeably more insular than almost anywhere else I have any experience of. It certainly sees lots of very specific external influences and it seems to have a far more mobile population than the US. It may have changed over the last 7 years I suppose (It's been a while since I have been over) but it was one of the first and most striking things (because it was surprising) I noted when I first went and was re-enforced subsequently.

[–]joshak 0 points1 point ago

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Can you cite some examples of what you mean?

[–]walesmd[S] 5 points6 points ago

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That's a very good point and something I have noticed as well. Americans travel, but rarely very far and not for long periods of time. Just some random thoughts from an American, to shed some light on the insularity (not trying to prove any type of point, just trying to incite responses/critical thinking from others):

I just believe (and I don't know why, it's not based in fact, but a "belief system" of sorts) that international travel is an expensive endeavor. That it is something that is done in retirement, when you have little responsibility and the money for it. Vacationing is typically a once a year thing, to the beach for a week; maybe a smaller vacation in the winter to go skiing or to grandma's house for Christmas. I don't agree with this belief, and would love to travel, it's just how I think many Americans view things without experiencing any type of "enlightenment".

Plus, there are so many cool things here in America. I somewhat have this feeling of abandonment - why go to Switzerland when I've yet to take an Alaskan cruise (I have, it's awesome btw).

In regards to living abroad, I think it is ingrained into us to some degree, based on our "melting pot" history. Why would I go live in France/China/Peru/India, when so many are trying to come live here? I could see living somewhere for a year or two, for a career, but I would always want to come back to America. I wouldn't want to just go live somewhere else for the sake of doing it.

[–]slapchopsuey 18 points19 points ago

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Americans travel, but rarely very far and not for long periods of time.

I think a large part of this is lack of paid vacation time. Americans on the whole get less vacation time than any other peer country, and IIRC there is no legal requirement that people get any paid vacation at all. Worse, there is pressure in the work culture in some workplaces for people to not take their vacation time, for fear that "they're not a team player" and will be on the chopping block with the next round of layoffs/downsizing.

The only people I've known who were well-travelled in their adult/working years, were those with European levels of paid vacation time. Two or three weeks a year paid vacation, or where vacation days and sick days are one in the same, doesn't cut it.

[–]nallyo2 6 points7 points ago

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Also, the United States is a really big country. Like, it's bigger than the whole of Europe. I still haven't been to the Grand Canyon, or even Disney World, though

-I've visited Washington DC (spent a week there, still didn't see everything + had to run through a couple of museums)

-Spent a week hiking in the foothills of the Rockies

-Visited Mammoth caves + several others in the system

-Roadtripped across the country, seeing the Northern half of the USA: Mt. Rushmore, Crazy Horse, Little Bighorn, Yellowstone

-Spent weeks on vacation traveling the coast of California or the Upper Peninsula of Michigan

-Enjoyed my own autobahn through the states of Nebraska, Iowa, Montana, and anywhere else there's a flat road and no cities for 60 miles around.

Yes, more vacation and cheaper travel rates would help, but there's so much to see here that cannot be experienced anywhere else. One day, I hope to travel around the world, but until my finances are stable and I have vacation time banked, this country is good enough for me.

[–]rednightmare 4 points5 points ago

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I was going to reply with something similar. If you live in the EU it is really easy to travel all you want. You have cheap flights and comparatively short distances to travel. There is also the benefit of the Euro and it's much easier to travel from country to country. Even more exotic locations are cheaper and easier to get to.

If you live in North America your only travel options are well, Canada, USA, and maybe down to Mexico or South America. If you want to go anywhere else you need to spend some serious cash. Heck, just domestic travel is significantly more expensive. It could cost me close to $1000 in travel expenses to go visit a major city on the other side of the country, and that's ignoring lodging and food. If I lived in England I could grab a plane on short notice for less than $50 and visit another country.

I imagine that Australians have a similar, possibly even worse, situation.

[–]Ad_Astra 0 points1 point ago

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Offtopic here, but re: your trip through the northern-central states, how did you do it? It's something I've wanted to do for a while.

[–]nallyo2 0 points1 point ago

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Actually went on 2 trips. One through North Dakota for the Northern Badlands, Teddy Roosevelt Park, and Little Bighorn. That one I ended up going through Yellowstone. It was a moving trip - from Midwest to Pac Northwest.

The other trip I took through the South Dakota Badlands, Crazy Horse, and Mt. Rushmore.

Basically, you make a decision in Minnesota - do you want to take I-94 through the North, or I-90 through the South? They meet up again before Yellowstone.

I can't remember how far in advance we had to get a reservation for Yellowstone - I think that we were slightly outside the park for our hotel and just drove in for a couple of days.

[–]ajehals 4 points5 points ago

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As to travel, the position you express (the reasons for not traveling) are probably at least in part due to the insular trait I indicated and in large part responsible for it's continuation. However, there is another element besides travel, simply that even outside of Travel Americans don't seem to be interested in what is happening in other areas of the world, unless it directly relates to the US. I would say that that also feeds the notion of US exceptionalism, after all if you don't see what is happening in the world it is easy to feel exceptional or special.

The few times I have been in the US and the more regular periods where I have had to deal with US nationals working abroad I have always been amazed at the little things, like being shocked at there being an NRA in the UK, or being amazed that I had a modern mobile phone etc..

The larger mis-apprehensions like those that the US invented electricity, radar, the computer, air travel, rocketry, the car, democracy etc.. had the first man in space and so on for almost any development you may wish to choose, is staggering. The idea that these things aren't American, but collaborative or in some cases utterly alien are met either with skepticism, doubt or hostility.. Obviously this isn't a good general picture of Americans as a whole (and possibly an indictment of education systems or the aforementioned nationalism..) but it is really quite surprising to see from people who are in technical fields, are doing well and have traveled abroad to work.

The shame there of course is that it means that people don't see the benefits of cooperation (if you think you are the best at something, why ask for help?), in some fields that won't matter because those involved will know better, but in politics and in any area where policy or law can impact it is potentially devastating.

[–]beverett 2 points3 points ago

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The idea that these things aren't American, but collaborative or in some cases utterly alien are met either with skepticism, doubt or hostility..

You guys have that problem in the UK, too. When I was last over there was an advert for some show describing all the various things the British invented (like the TV, steel, the combustion engine etc, etc). I don't really know what was or wasn't invented where, but I do know that most of these things are collaborative or simultaneously developed in various countries (as I know you're saying).

My point is, I don't think you're really talking about an "American" problem. You're talking about an ignorance problem, and the UK and the US have their fair share of ignorant people. Beyond that, most countries always have their little flavor of nationalistic pride and propaganda which pushes us towards thinking Thomas Edison was the best inventor ever, etc.

Anyway, this view that Americans are special in their insularity is a pet peeve of mine. Yes, Americans do have a narrow world view; but so does most everyone in the entire world. You only know best what you experience the most; and ignorant people have fewer experiences (and no country has a shortage of ignorance).

[–]ajehals 6 points7 points ago

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You guys have that problem in the UK, too.

Definitely, there is a subgroup that seems to think that the empire never declined, but they are a minority, a vocal one to be sure, but still a minority. More to the point, it isn't ingrained in the public subconscious, you are more likely to see people taking a 'plucky little Britain' view (which can be more or less justified, as long as it applies only post WWII) than one of current British superiority on the back of achievements from a century ago.

Hell, much of the UK population goes the other way, there is a significant proportion of the uninformed public who will tell you that the UK is degenerate and on the point of collapse, usually on the basis of foreign immigration, the Euro, the youth being lazy or the education system.. But overall I would say that there is a decent spectrum of positions, there isn't one that informs some sort of British superiority in all things, certainly not one that has been elevated to the point of being exported and informing foreign policy (the difference between US and UK rhetoric with regard to war is quite interesting in that regard).

My point is, I don't think you're really talking about an "American" problem. You're talking about an ignorance problem, and the UK and the US have their fair share of ignorant people.

Everywhere does. I think my point is that in the US it has so far had far more of an impact on politics and society as a whole. The UK makes some poor decisions and is certainly moving in the direction that the US is in now, but quite slowly and I think it will probably change course before it gets close to where the US is now (largely because the US does actually exercise military and economic dominance, or rather has, in a way that the UK simply cannot). Of course the UK is also very different from the US in a poitical sense, gain it is less polarised and less commercialised.

Yes, Americans do have a narrow world view; but so does most everyone in the entire world. You only know best what you experience the most; and ignorant people have fewer experiences (and no country has a shortage of ignorance).

This is where I would disagree. The US is certainly not unique, but it is close to being so. I have traveled quite extensively and the two countries that stood out in this regard were the US and Australia. The interesting point is that It is fairly obvious almost immediately, news broadcasts are shockingly country bound for example. Most Asian countries I managed to spend time in (including a few years in Hong Kong) and almost every European state on the other hand are far more broad in their influences and what they take in terms of news, culture and so on.

Part of that last point is probably because the US is a mass producer of media and so is culturally self-sufficient and self re-enforcing, but things like Bollywood releases for mass consumption seem far more common and accessible in Asia and Europe, as is Asian media (although less so in Europe).

In short, I don't think general ignorance is sufficient to explain US insularity, nor would I say that geographic isolation is an excuse for it. There is something in the combination of patriotism, exceptionalism and an insular trend that manages to feed on itself to an excessive level.

[–]unbibium 0 points1 point ago

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Australians, good at being insular? Have you ever been to a youth hostel anywhere in the world and not seen an Australian?

Indeed, I wish "walkabout" was a part of American culture, and that our foreign relations enabled it. Australians, for example, are permitted to seek jobs in Commonwealth countries in order to finance their months-long trips around the world.

[–]ajehals 0 points1 point ago

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Nothing like a reply to a 3 month old comment to confuse people...

Australians, good at being insular? Have you ever been to a youth hostel anywhere in the world and not seen an Australian?

Yes, I spent rather a long time in Australia and in terms of news and general discussion, Australians, in Australia are fairly insular. I agree that there is a subset of people who do travel a lot, internally and externally, indeed travelling around australia brought home just how nomadic some people can be... but at the same time compared to German and British news at the very least, the amount of reporting and discussion of issues outside of Australia seemed somewhat missing...

[–]unbibium 0 points1 point ago

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sorry, I heard of DepthHub and started plumbing it without realizing how old the submissions were.

This used to happen to me on Livejournal.

[–]ajehals 0 points1 point ago

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Hey, don't worry about it it's fine (in fact it's quite nice to have to read through an old thread)... Just one of those things where you see an orangered, read the message and do a double take because it makes no sense in the context of anything you have been talking about in the last few months....

[–]transfermonk -1 points0 points ago

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Have you ever considered that the high quality of living in the US is what causes Americans not to leave?

[–]ajehals 0 points1 point ago

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Quite likely. But it isn't the only place with a high quality of living (and that is actually probably more accurately described as a low cost of living, quality is somewhat relative). It also isn't an explanation for a lack of understanding, not to mention a lack of will when it comes to knowing about what is going on elsewhere.

I will add that this is still all still something of a generalisation.

[–]ZorbaTHut 18 points19 points ago

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I just ended an overnight drive from San Francisco to Seattle and found myself wondering about this exact question.

I came to the conclusion that, if I had to choose the cultural motto for America, it would be "fuck you, we're doing it because we can". It's a country founded on a pile of absolutely ridiculous ideas, filled with people who have dumb business plans and silly entreprenurial goals. And yet, they sit down and make it work. Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

We've got people who have formed working businesses around the World's Largest Ball of Twine. That sort of says it all.

[–]vhold 1 point2 points ago

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I think part of the reason that ridiculous tourist stuff works is because of a sense of connectedness as Americans, which leads to this kind of conversation:

"Dad, why are we going to a big ball of twine, who cares?"

"Well, Somebody has to go."

[–]BlueZek 4 points5 points ago

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I'm from the deep south of the US, and I'm called John Wayne by many of my foreign friends, or how in my travels some people instantly relate me with a cowboy or some other figure.

[–]sunsunsun 14 points15 points ago

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I'm from Michigan. Foreigners call me unemployed.

[–]douchebag_investor 0 points1 point ago

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We prefer the term "conquest"

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points ago* 

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Here is my list:

  • religious,
  • militaristic,
  • nationalistic,
  • culturally and historically self centered and ignorant (his explains why you consider yourself to be especially proud, altruistic, resilient or hard-headed compared to other nations),
  • self assured and opinionated, good at marketing themselves,
  • hopeful and constantly upbeat,
  • practical.

There are many characteristics that Americans think are specially their thing, but it turns out it is not so. My experience is that Chinese culture is even more competitive and business oriented than American and that's not just recent development.

[–]snowball666 2 points3 points ago

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Chinese culture is even more competitive and business oriented than American and that's not just recent development.

Or Japanese.

[–]DogBotherer 0 points1 point ago

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e.g. As American as apple pie. What a nonsensical concept that is! Assuming it's not intended as ironic of course, in which case it'd be ironic...

[–]HungLikeJesus 0 points1 point ago

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hopeful and constantly upbeat,

That's cause we're all on anti-depressants. ;)

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points ago

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You're deluded more than other countries. I've been here a month, and I find your ability to think you're the absolute shit despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary to be truly amazing.

You didn't save Europe from WWII, you stayed out of it while they threw everything they had at the bad guys for three fucking years - that's why you get to call yourselves the heroes. And truth be told, the Russians had much more right to claim to be the saviors in that battle.

The claim of patriotism is a bit weird - you're jingoistic, and unwilling to see your own faults, which is different to the rest of the worlkd's understanding of 'patriotism'.

Self-aggrandizing, yes - you don't think other nations are proud of their accomplishments? That's just stupid.

Ignorant of everything going on outside your borders - you remake movies that are already in English, just so you don't have to absorb or understand any other culture.

Having said all that, it's an amazing place, with lots to be proud of - I just find your analysis to be crap.

[–]walesmd[S] 7 points8 points ago

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I just find your analysis to be crap.

No, you think my analysis to be spot on. I never said any of these things were good, or right, or that I agreed with them. You merely restated everything I said, with additional information.

WWII for instance, anyone who has done any reading on the battles would know that Russia played a huge role and that Hitler's largest fault was starting a war with two fronts.

I wasn't trying to imply that the U.S. saved Europe during WWII, merely that's what the majority of Americans believe.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points ago

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Yeah, sorry, you're quite right. My sincere apologies - I posted that comment about ten minutes after discovering that my wife and I have yet another month without salary here in the US due to being fucked around with visa-related stuff. I was frustrated and pissy, and took it out on your thoughtful post. My bad, sorry again.

[–]walesmd[S] 6 points7 points ago

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NP - upvotes all around and hope your situation brightens up a bit.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

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Thanks, I'm working on it :)

[–]ZombieDracula 2 points3 points ago

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We really like our cheeseburgers.. and cheese in general.

[–]walesmd[S] 0 points1 point ago

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Oddly enough, I'm not a big fan of cheese. On cheeseburgers it's okay, but keep American cheese away from a normal old cold cut sandwich.

My daughter absolutely loves cheese, though. I blame it on her mother. :)

Edit: Speiling.

[–]ZombieDracula 4 points5 points ago

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I love cheese. Give me a high class blue from whole foods and Im in heaven. There's something about an apricot stilton that gives me the shakes. Im not even from wisconson!

[–]crackpnt69 1 point2 points ago

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mmmmmmmmmmmm Wisconsin...

[–]IJCQYR 4 points5 points ago

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It seems like trying to always play it by the book is heavily ingrained in American culture, much more than others. The government and American businesses try very hard to have a provision for everything, and most people have grown used to just following instructions. I think that the U.S. has some of the highest percentage of product packaging with opening instructions, perforations, and/or close tabs.

This isn't really a criticism. This kind of strategy is just one of the many ways to do things, and is likely to arise in a place of prolonged prosperity and abundance. But someone from China or Russia, for example, is likely to be amused by cops that are unlikely to take a bribe when they pull you over, people who generally follow rules of the road, and corrupt government officials being something that makes the news and causes outrage.

Another result of this is that, as a general rule, Americans are much more likely to rely on authority figures to resolve their problems, whether it is the classroom teacher, the police, or the courts. Sure, tattling is still looked down upon by kids, but going to your teacher if you have a problem is very heavily promoted in school. In other cultures, going to the teacher to resolve a problem with another student is almost taboo, and likely to turn you into a social outcast.

What brought this point home for me the fact that the U.S. Army Survival Manual has a whole section on improvisation, which explains that tools need not always be used for their original purpose.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points ago

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Bigger/More == Better mentality.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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more fat people and fatter fat people.

[–]mantaray 0 points1 point ago

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Honestly, while I agree that you list things that are characteristic for the US, none of them are unique to the US: Chinese society is extremely patriotic, proud of its accomplishments, resilient and hard-headed. Scandinavian countries donate far more than the US on a relative basis (Source). Aussies are very trusting of others and hopeful. Just to name a few examples :)

Interesting post nevertheless, but I just felt this needed to be said.

[–]lurkerr -1 points0 points ago

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you consider your nation to be especially proud, altruistic, resilient or hard-headed compared to other nations because of your cultural and historic self centered ignorance.

http://www.reddit.com/r/DepthHub/comments/d5rum/what_are_some_odd_interesting_cool_things_about/c0xs959